7/13/00 Charter Review Board **NOTIFICATION: **This is not an official, verbatim transcript of the following **meeting. It should be used for informational purposes only. **This document has not been edited; therefore, there may be **additions, deletions, or words that did not translate. >>JAN SMITH: GOOD EVENING. AND WELCOME TO THE MEETING OF THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD OF HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, JULY 13th OF THE YEAR 2000. I MUST FIRST APOLOGIZE FOR THE DELAY IN STARTING THIS MEETING. THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, AS YOU KNOW, MEETS IN THIS ROOM AND THEY HAVE HAD A VERY, VERY LONG DAY TODAY, AND THEY RAN A LITTLE BIT OVER. AND SO WE'RE STARTING A LITTLE LATE. BUT I WOULD ASK YOU TO PLEASE BEAR WITH US AND WE'LL GET A FEW OF OUR HOUSEKEEPING THINGS TAKEN CARE OF AND GET RIGHT TO PUBLIC COMMENT. I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE MARY LOU TUTTLE TO LEAD US IN THE PLEDGE AND I WOULD LIKE EVERYONE TO REMEMBER HARRY LEE COE AND HIS FAMILY FOR JUST A MOMENT. THANK YOU. MS. TUTTLE. >>JAN SMITH: MS. POUPART, MAY WE HAVE THE ROLL CALL PLEASE. [ROLL CALL TAKEN] YOU HAVE A QUORUM. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU. BOARD MEMBERS, WE HAVE MINUTES FROM TWO MEETINGS TO CONSIDER THIS EVENING. THE FIRST MINUTES ARE FROM JUNE 1st, WHICH WE PUT OFF WHILE WE WAITED A COMMENT FROM THE CLERK TO EXPLAIN THE WAY THE MINUTES ARE DONE. AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER MS. PARRISH WAS GOING TO BE HERE. I THINK SHE'S OUT. AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER SHE HAD A LETTER, BUT MR. WHITE HAD SOME CONCERNS AT THE LAST MEETING, AND HOPEFULLY, MR. WHITE, THEY WERE ADDRESSED. DID SOMEONE SPEAK TO YOU ABOUT -- >>GERALD WHITE: YES. I SPOKE WITH BARBARA MERRITT, OUR EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR. >>JAN SMITH: OKAY. >> I SPOKE WITH MS. PARRISH. SHE HAD ANOTHER MEETING TONIGHT. FOR THE NEXT MEETING, THE CLERK'S OFFICE AND I ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU THE PROCEDURES IN A BRIEF SUMMARY FORM. I WENT TO LOOK AT THE PROCEDURES THEY USE. THEY ARE TWO NOTEBOOKS THIS FULL. I DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH TIME TO COPY. I'LL GET A COPY FOR MR. WHITE AND THE REST OF THE BOARD MEMBERS. >>JAN SMITH: MEANWHILE, WE SHOULD CONSIDER VOTING ON THE MINUTES OF JUNE 1st. >>GERALD WHITE: MAKE A MOTION WE APPROVE THE MINUTES. >>JAN SMITH: I HAVE A MOTION BY MR. WHITE AND A SECOND BY MR. HURLEY TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF JUNE 1st. ANY ADDITIONS OR CORRECTIONS? ANYONE IN FAVOR PLEASE SAY AYE; ANYONE OPPOSED, SAME SIGN. NOW FOR THE MEETINGS OF JUNE 22nd, OUR IMMEDIATE LAST MEETING. >>GERALD WHITE: MOTION TO APPROVE. >>STEVE LaBOUR: SECOND. >>JAN SMITH: MOTION BY MR. WHITE AND SECOND BY MR. LaBOUR TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF JUNE 22nd. ALL IN FAVOR OF THE MOTION PLEASE SAY AYE. OPPOSED, SAME SIGN. THANK YOU. BECAUSE WE HAVE STARTED LATE THIS EVENING, AND WE HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK, WE GENERALLY GIVE EACH PERSON FIVE MINUTES, BUT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, I WOULD ASK EACH PERSON IN THE PUBLIC TO KEEP THEIR COMMENTS TO THREE MINUTES. IF WE HAVE TIME AT THE END OF THE MEETING, AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY, I WILL TONIGHT ALLOW YOU TO COMPLETE TWO MINUTES AT THE END OF THE MEETING, BUT WE DO HAVE THREE GUESTS, AND AS I SAID, WE ARE BEHIND ALREADY. SO I THINK THAT'S THE PROCEDURE. I DON'T SEE ANY OBJECTION FROM THE BOARD MEMBERS. WE'LL PROCEED THAT WAY. THE FIRST PERSON ON THE PUBLIC COMMENT IS ERIC JOHNSON. >>ERIC JOHNSON: GOOD EVENING. I'M ERIC JOHNSON, DIRECTOR OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. AT YOUR LAST MEETING, YOU HEARD COMMENTS FROM A COUPLE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE UPSET ABOUT A CONTRACT THAT THEIR ORGANIZATION HAS DEVELOPED WITH HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. THEY DID THAT ON THE PUBLIC RECORD, AND WE FELT AN OBLIGATION TO RESPOND, SO I'LL BE BRIEF. I JUST WANTED TO TELL YOU, MY OFFICE MANAGES CONTRACTS WITH ABOUT 40 DIFFERENT NONPROFIT AGENCIES, AND WHAT WE ESTABLISHED A FEW YEARS AGO WAS PAID FOR PERFORMANCE CONTRACTS. THE ORGANIZATION THAT YOU HEARD FROM IS A LITTLE INEXPERIENCED. THEY ARE A NEW ORGANIZATION AND WERE NOT PREPARED FOR THE TYPE OF CONTRACT WE MANAGE. SPECIFICALLY THE BOARD HAD APPROVED FUNDING FOR $300,000 FOR 12 MONTHS OF SERVICE. THAT ORGANIZATION STARTED SIX MONTHS INTO THE YEAR, AND THEY WERE UPSET WHEN I ASKED THAT THE CONTRACT BE PREPARED FUNDING THEM $150,000 FOR SIX MONTHS. I WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT THE BOARD HAS AGREED TO PROVIDE THEM A HIGHER LEVEL OF FUNDING. THE CONTRACT IS IN PLACE. WE THINK IT IS A WORTHWHILE ORGANIZATION. WE WANT THEM TO BE SUCCESSFUL, AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT THEY AND WE HAD TO USE THIS PROCESS TO ADDRESS AN ISSUE THAT I DON'T KNOW IS TERRIBLY RELEVANT TO THIS ORGANIZATION. I WILL POINT OUT, WHOEVER, THAT THE TYPE OF CONTRACTS WE PUT IN PLACE ARE ONES THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE THINK ARE WHAT THE BLUE RIBBON COMMITTEE AND COUNTY FINANCES SUPPORTED, DON'T GIVE MONEY TO CHARITIES, BUT TO GIVE MONEY TO ORGANIZATIONS THAT PROVIDE SERVICES TO THE COMMUNITY. AND TAXWATCH, IN PARTICULAR, APPLAUDED THE TYPE OF CONTRACT THAT WE USE BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT'S A PAID FOR PERFORMANCES. WE DON'T CARE HOW MUCH AN ORGANIZATION SPENDS; WHAT WE CARE IS WHAT SERVICE THEY PROVIDE. ONES THEY PROVIDED THAT SERVICE, WE PAY THEM. APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A COUPLE OF COMMENTS TONIGHT, AND GOOD LUCK. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU, MR. JOHNSON. MR. KARL WARREN. MR. WARREN, IF YOU WANT TO SPEAK SO THAT YOU SPEAK THE WHOLE FIVE MINUTES, YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL THE END OR YOU CAN SPEAK THREE NOW AND COMPLETE YOUR COMMENTS AT THE END OF THE MEETING. >> I HAVE SOMEWHERE TO GO SO LET ME TRY TO GET IT IN. THANKS, MADAM CHAIRMAN. MY NAME IS KARL WARREN, TAMPA. THE TRIBUNE PUBLISHED AN EDITORIAL ENTITLED "THE DANGER OF A COUNTY AUDITOR." THE FIRST PART OF THE PARAGRAPH IS CORRECT, MOST VOTERS WILL SAY YES IF ASKED IF THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY CHARTER SHOULD BE CHANGED TO ALLOW THE COMMISSIONERS TO HIRE AN AUDITOR TO LOOK INTO HOW TAX DOLLARS ARE BEING SPENT. I BELIEVE THAT THE BALANCE OF THE EDITORIAL IS BASED ON INFORMATION PROVIDED TO THE TRIBUNE BY ED HUNZEKER AND IT WAS WITHOUT MERIT AND NOT BASED ON FACTS. THIS IS THE SAME ED HUNZEKER WHO WAS CALLED BEFORE THE BOARD, I BELIEVE IT WAS UNPRECEDENTED AND INAPPROPRIATE AT YOUR JUNE 22nd MEETING. HE WAS GIVEN 40 MINUTES AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR MEETING TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE PROPOSAL EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NOT SCHEDULED AND DID NOT APPEAR ON THE AGENDA. MR. HUNZEKER IS QUOTED IN THE EDITORIAL STATING "SINCE 1995, PERFORMANCE AUDITS HAVE BEEN DONE AND 80% OF COUNTY DEPARTMENTS. THE AUDITS COST $1.6. MILLION, IDENTIFIED BY $600,000 SAVINGS AND RECOMMENDED SAVINGS $5 MILLION MORE ON IMPROVEMENTS SUCH AS BETTER TRAINING. THE FACTS ARE CONTAINED IN DAN KLEMAN'S MEMORANDUM OF APRIL 21st, 1998 TO THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. THIS MEMORANDUM, HOWEVER, STATES MANAGEMENT ANALYSIS OFFICE IS WORKING WITH THE AUDIT DEPARTMENT IN AN ATTEMPT TO DOCUMENT THE VALUE OF FULLY IMPLEMENTED PERFORMANCE AUDIT RECOMMENDATIONS RESULTING FROM THE CONTRACTED AUDITS OF COUNTY ADMINISTRATION ORGANIZATIONS WHICH HAVE COST A TOTAL OF $966,572. THIS IS EXCLUSIVE OF THE CROSS OBJECTION STUDY. THE REPORTED FIVE-YEAR SAVINGS OF THE COLLECTIVE SET OF RECOMMENDATIONS PRESENTED IN THESE AUDITS IS APPROXIMATELY $76 MILLION AND $45 MILLION IN ADDITIONAL COST. AND THEY ARE REFLECTED IN THE AUDIT RECOMMENDATION FOR A NET SAVINGS OF $31 MILLION. USING THESE DATA, A QUICK CALCULATION WOULD SUGGEST THAT FOR EVERY DOLLAR INVESTED IN PERFORMANCE AUDITING, A NET SAVINGS OVER FIVE YEARS OF $32 PER DOLLAR INVESTED IN THE PERFORMANCE AUDIT WILL RESULT; HOWEVER, IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE. A CLOSER ANALYSIS, FOR EXAMPLE, OF THE ESTIMATED SAVINGS FINDING THAT A TOTAL FIVE-YEAR ESTIMATED SAVINGS, 20.4 MILLION OF THE 76 MILLION IS CORRESPONDING WITH THE CONTINUED VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS. I BELIEVE IN CONCLUSION, THAT ED HUNZEKER TOLD YOU JUNE THE 22nd WE NOT ONLY DID NOT SAVE MONEY AS A RESULT OF PERFORMANCE AUDIT, THAT THEY, IN FACT, COST US MONEY. MR. KLEMAN WRITES, HOWEVER, ON APRIL 21st THAT WE HAD A NET SAVINGS OF 31 MILLION SUBJECT TO FURTHER REVIEW. MR. KLEMAN'S ANALYSIS WRITES DECEMBER 31st THAT WE ENJOYED A NET SAVINGS OF 12.4 MILLION. JUST ONE STATEMENT. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EACH OF YOU ONE QUESTION, BOARD MEMBERS. HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE BEEN LOBBIED IN PERSON OR BY PHONE BY MR. HUNZEKER ON THE APPOINTED COUNTY AUDITOR ISSUE? I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SEE YOUR HAND. HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE? THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: THE NEXT PERSON ON OUR AGENDA IS MR. RALPH HUGHES. MR. HUGHES, YOU HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITY, PLEASE. >> I WANT TO ADDRESS THAT, MADAM CHAIR. RALPH HUGHES, TAMPA. I THINK IT'S GROSSLY UNFAIR TO THE PUBLIC TO ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO COME DOWN HERE. AND WE HAVE FIVE MINUTES, AND THEN YOU START 30 MINUTES LATE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THE PUBLIC AND THEN YOU'VE DONE THIS BEFORE AND CUT OUR TIME. NOW I DON'T MIND SPEAKING AFTER THE GUESTS. I DON'T MIND SPEAKING AFTER THE GUESTS, BUT I CANNOT BREAK WHAT I HAVE TO SAY UP INTO SEGMENTS. AS LONG AS I CAN SPEAK BEFORE THE BOARD DISCUSSES THE PERFORMANCE AUDITOR ISSUE, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. BUT I CAN'T START WITH -- CAN I SPEAK BEFORE THE BOARD DISCUSSES THE PERFORMANCE AUDITOR ISSUE? >>JAN SMITH: MR. HUGHES, THE -- YOUR NEXT OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WILL ARE AT THE END OF THE MEETING, AS IS OUR PROCEDURE. >> YOUR PROCEDURE IS WHAT MADAM CHAIRMAN DECIDES IT TO BE. I ASKED IF THERE WAS ANY OBJECTION FROM THE BOARD. PLEASE CONTINUE YOUR COMMENTS. >> I'M NOT GOING TO SPLIT THEM UP. I JUST TOLD YOU THAT. I WOULD ASK IF THIS BOARD IN DEFENSE TO THE PUBLIC -- IT ONLY TAKES THE MAJORITY OF THE VOTE TO OVERRULE THE DECISION OF THE CHAIR OF GROSSLY MISTREATING THE PUBLIC LIKE THIS. WILL SOMEONE MAKE A MOTION THAT WE CAN HAVE OUR FIVE MINUTES AS WE ARE ASKED -- OR TOLD THAT WE COULD HAVE IF WE COME DOWN HERE? NO ONE WILL MAKE A MOTION? OKAY. THEN UNFORTUNATELY I WILL BE UNABLE TO SPEAK. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: THE NEXT PERSON ON THE AGENDA IS MR. JOE SMITH. JOE SMITH? ARE YOU JUST SIGNED IN? WELL, THE NEXT PERSON TO SPEAK IS MS. MARILYN SMITH. >>AUDIENCE: RESERVE UNTIL THE END. >>JAN SMITH: YES, MA'AM. MS. JOYCE SMITH. I WOULD SAY THE SMITHS HAVE IT. [ LAUGHTER ] >> YES, AND HELLO, CHAIRMAN SMITH, BOARD. MY NAME IS JOYCE SMITH, AND HE RESIDE AT 7201 DAIQUIRI LANE IN TAMPA. AND I JUST WANTED TO MAKE A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ABOUT THE AUDITOR'S POSITION THAT, YOU KNOW, YOUR BOARD IS TALKING ABOUT. IT'S INTERESTING HOW, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO MUCH TALK ABOUT CUTTING GOVERNMENT, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU'RE CONCENTRATING ON ADDING GOVERNMENT. YOU KNOW, I'M A LITTLE SURPRISED AT THE WAY THAT DIRECTION IS GOING BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICAL CLIMATE OUT THERE IS CUT GOVERNMENT. LOOK AT WHAT JEB BUSH IS DOING RIGHT NOW. HE'S SAYING HE'S CUTTING 25% OF THE WORKERS IN THE STATE FORCE, PROBABLY GOING TO MOVE THEM TO YOU GUYS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL AND GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE ISSUES. AND, YOU KNOW, SO THERE IS ALL THESE VARIOUS DEGREES OF GOVERNMENT ENTITIES MOVING TO VARIOUS DEGREES OF PRIVATIZATION. SO I JUST WANTED TO MAKE A VERY QUICK POINT THAT IT SEEMS ODD THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT HAVING ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, COUNTY DEPARTMENT, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU START HAVING A COUNTY DEPARTMENT, THIS DEPARTMENT MIGHT START OUT AT HALF A MILLION DOLLARS, MAYBE. MAYBE A MILLION DOLLARS, BUT IN A FEW YEARS WHAT IS IT GOING TO BE? FOUR MILLION DOLLARS? THERE IS A COUPLE OF COUNTY DEPARTMENTS THAT I KNOW OF THAT HAVE JUST BEEN PUT TOGETHER IN THE LAST 10, 15 YEARS, AND, YOU KNOW, THEY START EATING UP THAT MONEY. AND ONE OF THE DEPARTMENTS IS UP TO OVER $11 MILLION. SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S FINE TO TALK ABOUT REALLY CURTAILING GOVERNMENT, AND, YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE THAT CAN BE A GOOD THING. THERE MAY BE SOME THINGS THAT GOVERNMENT SHOULD DO OR PRIVATE SECTOR COULD DO BETTER. THAT'S FINE. BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE AUDITS, THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS CAN HAVE AUDITS WHEN THEY WANT. YOU KNOW, THEY'VE BEEN HAVING AUDITS. YOU KNOW, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS HAS BECOME SUCH A BIG ISSUE. BECAUSE WHEN THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WANT TO HAVE AN AUDIT, THEY CAN GO OUT AND GET AN AUDIT DONE AND IT IS GOING TO BE LESS THAN PAYING THOSE HEALTH BENEFITS AND FRINGE BENEFITS AND PENSION BENEFITS. ALSO ONE THING TO THINK ABOUT THOSE AUDITS, WHEN THOSE PERFORMANCE AUDITS, FOR ONE COMES BACK, A LOT OF TIMES THEY WILL SAY, WOW, YOU HAVE GOT TO SPEND THIS MUCH MORE MONEY TO GET WHERE YOU WANT TO GO. SO ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU HAVE GOT TO BUY THIS SOFTWARE OR DO THIS PROGRAM OR DO THAT. AND SOMETIMES, IN FACT IN A LOT OF CASES, THOSE AUDITS WILL TELL YOU TO SPEND MORE MONEY TO GET BETTER RESULTS. SO THAT'S JUST MY FEELING ON IT. IT'S A PERSONAL OPINION. LIKE I SAID, I REALLY THINK YOU SHOULD CONSIDER BEFORE ADDING MORE LAYERS OF GOVERNMENT, YOU THINK ABOUT REALLY WHAT THIS CHARTER SHOULD BE DOING. SO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR LISTENING. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU. IS THERE ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS NOT SIGNED IN THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD? OKAY. I THOUGHT THAT CHAIRMAN PAT FRANK WAS GOING TO COME IN. SHE HAS BEEN HERE AND WANTED TO ADDRESS THE BOARD. I DON'T SEE HER. WELL, WHAT I THINK WE'LL DO IS GO AHEAD WITH COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN AND THEN -- HERE -- ARE YOU THERE? >>DENISE LASHER: SHE SIGNED UP UNDER PUBLIC COMMENT? >>JAN SMITH: MADAM CHAIRMAN, THANKS FOR BEING HERE. WE HAVE TO ASK YOU TO ABIDE BY OUR THREE-MINUTE TIME LIMIT IF YOU DON'T MIND AND THEN THERE MAY BE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU. >> LET ME APOLOGIZE FOR BEING LATE. I THINK THE ISSUE OF THE AUDITOR AND I HAD ADDRESSED THAT WHEN I CAME BEFORE THE GROUP EARLIER SHOULD BE CLARIFIED FROM WHERE MY POSITION WAS. IF YOU RECALL, I ORIGINALLY ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE AS AN INDEPENDENT PERSON WORKING DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS TO ASSIST US IN UNDERSTANDING THE BUDGET AND BEING ABLE TO ADVISE US ON WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT. PERFECT EXAMPLE WAS WHAT WE'VE GONE THROUGH TODAY. THAT WAS A MARVELOUS SESSION WHERE WE HAD THE LUXURY OF HAVING UNANTICIPATED ADDITIONAL REVENUE THAT WE HAD TO BALANCE OFF WHAT OUR PRIORITIES WERE, AND WE WRESTLED WITH THAT BACK AND FORTH. THERE WAS OPEN DEBATE. AND A GIVE-AND-TAKE PROCESS. WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT OPPORTUNITY IN THE PAST. BECAUSE WE DON'T GET INTO THE MEAT OF THE BUDGET. THERE IS NOT AN ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT WITH THE STRUCTURE THAT'S THERE. YOU NEED SOMEONE WHO IS KNOWLEDGEABLE ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO ADVISE THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS INDEPENDENT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION, NOT SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR THE ADMINISTRATOR. THIS IS NOT A PERFORMANCE AUDIT THAT I'M SUGGESTING BECAUSE THERE ARE AUDITS THAT ARE BEING DONE ALL THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS. IT'S NOT ANOTHER STRUCTURE THAT'S GOING TO GROW LIKE TOPSY. WHAT IT IS IS SOMEONE TO ASSIST THE BOARD IN UNDERSTANDING HOW THEY REVIEW THE BUDGET AND MAKING IT VERY CLEAR. NOW, THERE HAS BEEN SOME STATEMENTS MADE HERE THAT THE BOARD CAN HIRE SOMEBODY. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS HAVING IT IN THE CHARTER, BECAUSE YOU HAVE ONE BOARD ONE YEAR WHO MAY SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF IT; ANOTHER BOARD MAY NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S NOT AVAILABLE TO THEM. AND THEY DON'T APPRECIATE IT. SO IT WOULD BE TOO FLEXIBLE IN NO STRUCTURE TO IT. AND ALSO, THE CHARTER DOES GIVE, YOU KNOW, THE RESPONSIBILITY IS WITH THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR IN TERMS OF ADVISING THE BOARD ON THESE MATTERS. IF YOU DON'T CLARIFY THERE IS AN ABILITY FOR THE BOARD TO BE ABLE TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT VIEW AT THESE ITEMS, THEN I DON'T THINK THAT YOU HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THE NUMBERS THE SAME WAY. IT'S THE BUDGET PROCESS THAT WORRIED ME MORE THAN ANYTHING. >>JAN SMITH: MADAM CHAIRMAN, DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER COMMENT TO MAKE OR MAY WE ASK A QUESTION? ONE OF THE QUESTIONS I WOULD ASK THEN IS IN THE ADMINISTRATIVE CODE, IT SETS OUT A POLICY THAT THE BOARD HAS THE ABILITY TO APPOINT THE BUDGET OFFICER, AND IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PREVIOUS BOARDS OF COUNTY COMMISSIONER HAS APPOINTED MR. KLEMAN AS THE BUDGET OFFICER. WOULD IT BE A POSSIBILITY FOR THE BOARD TO REVIEW THE ADMINISTRATIVE CODE AND LOOK AT HOW THAT POSITION IS SELECTED AND DO IT THROUGH THE ADMINISTRATIVE CODE THROUGH A BOARD POLICY? OR DO YOU STILL FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT IT NEEDS TO BE -- >>PAT FRANK: I DON'T THINK THAT THE BOARD SHOULD BE THE TOTAL BODY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BUDGET. -- FOR THE CARRYING OUT OF THE BUDGET, THE BUDGET OFFICER HAS THAT RESPONSIBILITY. I DON'T THINK THE BOARD WOULD WANT TO HAVE THAT. I'M JUST TRYING TO GET A BALANCE IN THERE. THAT'S ALL. >>JAN SMITH: MR. WHITE AND MR. LaBOUR. >>GERALD WHITE: I'M GLAD YOU CAME TO CLARIFY YOUR POSITION ON THE PERFORMANCE AUDITOR PROPOSAL THAT WE HAVE TO WRESTLE WITH TONIGHT. WHAT I WOULD LIKE FROM YOU IS, IF POSSIBLE, A FORMAL RESPONSE IN WHAT YOU'RE REQUESTING, BECAUSE ONCE YOU OPEN IT UP, THE TOP OF WHAT YOU WANTED, IT GETS FILLED WITH ALL KINDS OF THINGS. AND I WOULD LIKE TO GIVE YOU THE TOOLS THAT YOU NEED TO BE AN EFFECTIVE COUNTYWIDE REPRESENTATIVE. SO IF YOU DON'T MIND, PRESENTING TO THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD EXACTLY THE NAME OF THIS POSITION, THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THIS POSITION, AND HOW IT WILL BE GOVERNED AND RUN AND JUST PRESENT IT TO THIS BOARD, IT WILL BE VERY HELPFUL. >>PAT FRANK: I INTENDED TO HAVE SOMETHING IN WRITING AND WE HAVE BEEN IN MEETING FOR THREE DAYS SOLIDLY INTO -- CLOSE TO WHAT AMOUNTS TO THE EVENING. SO I APOLOGIZE FOR NOT HAVING ANYTHING WRITTEN BEFORE YOU. WHEN ARE YOU MAKING YOUR DETERMINATION SO I KNOW WHAT TIME FRAME WE'RE OPERATING AT? >>JAN SMITH: COMMISSIONER FRANK, THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD WILL BE DISCUSSING THE AUDITOR AGAIN THIS EVENING AND PERHAPS TAKING SOME ACTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT TO TAKE THE ISSUE TO A PUBLIC HEARING. BY LAW, THERE HAVE TO BE -- BY CHARTER, FLORIDA HAVE TO BE TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS, AND THEN THIS BOARD WILL HAVE TO MAKE A FINAL DECISION IF THEY WANT TO PUT IT ON THE BALLOT. THAT FINAL HEARING IS PROBABLY WHEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SOME INFORMATION BACK, WHICH WOULD PROBABLY GIVE YOU UNTIL SOME TIME IN AUGUST, BUT NOT THAT MUCH LATER. AND IF YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE SOMETHING DRAFTED AND CAN GET IT TO ME OR BARBARA MERRITT, THEN WE'LL MAKE SURE THAT IT GETS COPIED TO EVERY MEMBER OF THE BOARD. >>PAT FRANK: ALL RIGHT. I APPRECIATE THAT. >>JAN SMITH: EXCUSE ME, MR. LaBOUR WAS NEXT AND THEN MS. TUTTLE. >>STEVE LaBOUR: THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIRMAN, FOR COMING DOWN AND CLARIFYING YOUR POSITION. I THINK MS. TUTTLE AND I THOUGHT WE WERE HEARING THINGS WHEN PEOPLE SAID YOU WERE ASKING FOR A PERFORMANCE AUDITOR. THAT'S NOT WHAT I GOT FROM YOUR COMMENTS FROM BEFORE. SO I'M GLAD YOU CAME TO CLARIFY IT. I'M FAMILIAR WITH THE CITY GOVERNMENT, AND THEY HAVE A PROVISION IN WHICH THE CITY COUNCIL CAN HIRE A BUDGET ANALYST THAT CAN -- THAT WORKS AT THE PLEASURE OF THE COUNCIL AND CAN NOTIFY DEPARTMENTS OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND ASK FOR DOCUMENTS AND GET QUESTIONS ANSWERED. IS THAT -- IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE -- >>PAT FRANK: THAT'S GETTING CLOSER TO WHERE I'M GOING AND ALSO SOMEONE WHO CAN GO IN AND SEE HOW THE BUDGET -- THE COMMISSION ADOPTS -- IS CARRIED OUT, WHETHER IT'S CONSISTENT WITH IT. IF THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM THEY SEE, THEY CAN INITIATE THAT. NOW I KNOW THAT I READ MR. HUNZEKER'S TESTIMONY, AND HE WAS CONCERNED WOULD YOU HAVE TOO MANY POLITICAL OVERTONES AND HE GAVE AN EXAMPLE OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT OR THE FIRE WORKERS ENDORSING SOMEBODY AND WANTING TO HAVE SOMETHING DONE. YOU KNOW, THERE -- THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. I THINK YOU CAN PROTECT AGAINST THAT THE WAY THAT IT'S WRITTEN. AND IF ANYONE THINKS THAT THERE AREN'T POLITICS IN THIS BUSINESS, THEY ARE BEING RATHER NAIVE ANYHOW. >>STEVE LaBOUR: A AS YOU PUT TOGETHER YOUR -- I GUESS JOB DESCRIPTION, IF YOU WILL, YOU MIGHT WANT TO THINK OF WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN DEAL WITH THAT ISSUE. BECAUSE THAT IS A LEGITIMATE ISSUE IF FOUR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WANT -- I'M NOT SUGGESTING THIS COMMISSION WOULD DO THAT, BUT IF FOUR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS DECIDE THEY WANT TO GO ON A WITCH-HUNT IN A PARTICULAR DEPARTMENT, THEY CAN USE THAT POSITION POSSIBLY IN A VERY NEGATIVE WAY, AND IT WILL ALSO BE DIFFICULT FOR THE BUDGET ANALYST TO REALIZE THERE WERE FOUR COMMISSIONERS SUPPORTIVE OF THIS PROGRAM WHILE THREE MAY BE VEHEMENTLY AGAINST IT. AND THEY ARE GOING TO BE ASKING FOR QUESTIONS AND INFORMATION AS WELL. SO I THINK THERE PROBABLY DOES HAVE TO BE SOME -- I DON'T KNOW HOW THE CITY RECTIFIES THAT, BUT IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU MAY WANT TO ASK THEM. HOW THAT WORK PROGRAM IS SET. WHO THEY REPORT TO IS GOING TO BE AN IMPORTANT ISSUE. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: MS. TUTTLE. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: MR. LaBOUR HAS EXPRESSED MOST OF THE THINGS I WAS THINKING ABOUT. THE ONLY THING I WOULD LIKE FOR US TO THINK ABOUT, AND YOU ALSO, IS STOP CALLING IT A COUNTY AUDITOR AND START THINKING IN TERMS OF A COUNTY DOCTOR OR A COMMISSION FINANCE PERSON IN SOME WAY OR OTHER. I THINK MR. WHITE'S ON THE RIGHT TRACK THERE. WE NEED TO HAVE SOME GUIDANCE, BUT THANK YOU. >>PAT FRANK: THAT'S A GOOD POINT. >>TERRY BALLARD: ONE THING WHERE WE MAY HAVE IT CALLED THE WRONG NAME. YOU KNOW, PERFORMANCE AUDITOR. BUT WHEN THE COUNTY HAS A PERFORMANCE AUDITOR, WANTS A PERFORMANCE AUDIT ON ANY DEPARTMENT, DOES THAT COME THROUGH THE COUNTY COMMISSION OR THE ADMINISTRATOR? >>PAT FRANK: THE RECOMMENDATION IS MADE, AND THE BOARD HAS TO APPROVE IT, AS I RECALL. I THINK -- MOST OF THE -- MOST OF THE AUDITS THAT WE'VE HAD DONE HAVE BEEN UNDER SOME REQUIREMENT THAT THEY ARE DONE. OUTSIDE REQUIREMENTS OF DIFFERENT BODIES. BUT I'D HAVE TO DEFER TO THE PROCESS THAT'S USED RIGHT NOW. YOU KNOW, -- >>TERRY BALLARD: I THINK THE INTENT WAS TO HAVE -- YOU KNOW, THE PERFORMANCE THAT YOU ALL COULD -- IF YOU FEEDED -- NEEDED SOME PERFORMANCE AUDITS THAT IT WOULD COME UNDER Y'ALL TO SEE THAT IT WAS IMPLEMENTED BUT THE MAIN THING WOULD BE ON BUDGET REVIEW, BUT HAVING BOTH OF THOSE, AS YOU ALL GET THE COMPLAINTS FROM THE CITIZENS, YOU KNOW, ON ANY AREA OF THE GOVERNMENT, THEN YOU'VE GOT A PERFORMANCE AUDITOR. AND FIRST OF ALL, IT'S GOING TO BE SET UP BY THE COUNTY COMMISSION, WHICH BY ORDINANCE. AND YOU CAN HAVE ONE PERSON OR TEN OR WHATEVER YOU NEED. BUT -- AND YOU STILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO GO OUTSIDE AND GET PERFORMANCE AUDITS WITHOUT HAVING THE INHOUSE STAFF. SO AS YOU COME BACK WITH A DESCRIPTION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT'S -- YOU KNOW, ADDRESS THOSE AREAS, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR THEM ALL. >>PAT FRANK: AND THE PERFORMANCE AUDITS, A LOT OF THEM ARE DONE BY OUTSIDE AGENCIES NOW. >>TERRY BALLARD: AND IT'S IN THERE, THE WAY IT'S WORDED AND THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT, THAT CAN CONTINUE LIKE THAT. >>PAT FRANK: ABSOLUTELY. BUT WHAT I FORESEE THE ROLE OF THIS PERSON, AND I'M SAYING PERSON BECAUSE I THINK THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A LARGE AGENCY. I THINK YOU START OUT WITH SOMEONE WHO NEEDS A SUPPORT PERSON AND THEMSELVES. AND THEN THEY DRAW UPON THE EXPERTISE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENTS TO BE ABLE TO HELP THEM WITH THE MECHANICS OF CARRYING IT OUT. BUT THE -- I'M SORRY. I JUST LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT. THIS HAS BEEN A VERY BAD DAY. THE PERFORMANCE AUDITS -- IT'S THE ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO GO BACK INTO THEM AND DIG INTO THEM DEEPER THAT ONCE THE AUDIT IS GIVEN TO THE COUNTY AND SUBMITTED TO THEM, FREQUENTLY WHAT HAPPENS IS WE GET THE AUDIT, IT'S HANDED TO US, WE REVIEW IT. WE HAVE A SLEW OF OTHER THINGS TO DO, AND THEN THAT GOES ON THE SIDE TABLE. THIS PERSON COULD MAKE SURE THAT IF THEY SEE ANYTHING THAT IS NECESSARY TO HAVE ADDITIONAL ATTENTION, THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT AND DRAW IT TO OUR ATTENTION. >>TERRY BALLARD: MAKE SURE IT IS IMPLEMENTED IF IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMPLEMENTED AND REPORT IT BACK TO THE COMMISSION. THAT'S THE INTENT OF IT, THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT. >>PAT FRANK: I APPRECIATE IT. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU CHAIRMAN FRANK FOR EXTENDING YOUR DAY. I APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE. >>GERALD WHITE: MADAM CHAIR, I HAVE ONE LAST THOUGHT AND IT WILL ONLY TAKE 30 SECONDS. MADAM CHAIR, THE OTHER DAY WHEN YOU ASKED THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR NOT TO TAKE THE DC TRIP TO SEE CONGRESSMAN YOUNG, I HAVE PLEASED WITH THAT DECISION. LET ME -- I WAS PLEASED WITH THE LEADERSHIP THAT I SAW FROM THE CHAIR OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. AND I WANT YOU TO GIVE THAT SOME THOUGHT. DOES THE CHAIR NEED SOMETHING IN ORDER TO GOVERN AS THE CHAIR OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS? THINK ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE. IF YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS TO -- >>JAN SMITH: MR. WHITE, I'M SORRY, I THINK WE HAVE TO BRING THAT TO A HALT BECAUSE THAT IS IN LINE WITH THE CHARTER'S RESPONSIBILITY. UNLESS YOU TO GET INTO THE DISCUSSION OF -- >>GERALD WHITE: I PERSONALLY ENJOY THAT LEADERSHIP THAT I SAW AND IF SHE HAD ANY PERSONAL THOUGHTS ON THAT, I WOULD LIKE HER TO SHARE THAT WITH THE BOARD. CHAIRMAN FRANK -- >>JAN SMITH: CHAIRMAN FRANK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING THIS EVENING. >>PAT FRANK: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >>JAN SMITH: AS A MATTER OF CLARIFICATION, BOARD MEMBERS, AS TO NO CONFUSION OF WHAT TOOK PLACE. AFTER OUR LAST BOARD MEETING, I RECEIVED A PHONE CALL FROM THE -- AN EDITORIAL WRITER OF THE TRIBUNE ASKING ME ABOUT THE AUDITOR. I SAID I WOULD BE HAPPY TO PROVIDE HIM THE INFORMATION THAT THIS BOARD HAD. I FAXED HIM A COPY OF MR. GLICKMAN'S ORIGINAL PROPOSAL, A COPY OF THE COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATION, A COPY OF WHAT MR. HUNZEKER PRESENTED HERE, AND TOLD HIM HE COULD CALL MS. MERRITT FOR A COPY OF THE TAPE IF HE WANTED TO VIEW IT, THAT IT WAS A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD. SO APOLOGIES TO MR. HUNZEKER IF YOU WERE ABUSED. I'M SORRY. BUT THAT'S HOW IT CAME ABOUT. AND I TRIED JUST IN ALL FAIRNESS TO PROVIDE WHAT THIS BOARD HAD RECEIVED IN A PUBLIC MEETING AND TOLD HIM HE COULD CONTACT BARBARA FOR THE TAPE. AND SO THAT'S HOW THE INFORMATION REACHED THE TRIBUNE, AND I ASSUMED THAT HE DID HIS, QUOTE, DUE DILIGENCE TO COME UP WITH HIS EDITORIAL. BOARD MEMBERS, WE ARE HAPPY TO HAVE WITH US THREE SPEAKERS THIS EVENING. AND FIRST IS ANOTHER COUNTY COMMISSIONER THAT'S SPENT THE ENTIRE DAY HERE AND THE LAST FEW. COMMISSIONER FROM TOWN N' COUNTRY AREA, THE CITY OF TAMPA AREA, I'LL LET HIM GIVE YOU HIS DISTRICT NUMBER. IT ESCAPES ME FOR A MOMENT. COMMISSIONER BEN WACKSMAN. ONE? NUMBER ONE. >>BEN WACKSMAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >>JAN SMITH: COMMISSIONER, YOU HAVE 15 MINUTES. >>BEN WACKSMAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MADAM CHAIR. MY DISTRICT JUST FOR THE RECORD INCLUDES SOUTH TAMPA AND TOWN N' COUNTRY, DISTRICT 1. I WANTED TO COME AND FIRST TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD. I THINK EACH OF YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY HERE IS VERY SIGNIFICANT. I KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE DEBATING OVER THE COURSE OF TIME MANY ISSUES, AND MANY OF THEM MAY BE CONTENTIOUS ISSUES OR YOU MAY HAVE DISAGREEMENTS, BUT THE TASK THAT YOU HAVE AT HAND IS SO IMPORTANT TO OUR COMMUNITY, AND I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT FROM A PERSPECTIVE AS A COMMISSIONER, THE GREAT APPRECIATION THAT I HAVE FOR ALL THAT YOU WERE DOING, AND I KNOW IT'S NOT EASY. AND SOMETIMES ITS TIRING. NOT ALWAYS INTERESTING, BUT IN THE END, THE COMMUNITY IS WELL SERVED AND I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THAT. MY OWN EXPERIENCE, I'M FAIRLY NEW TO GOVERNMENT, BUT MY GOVERNMENT EXPERIENCE TO ME HAS BEEN A HUMBLING EXPERIENCE, IT'S BEEN AN HONOR AND A PRIVILEGE TO SERVE THIS COMMUNITY. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I RECOGNIZED RIGHT AWAY WAS THE FRIDAY GUILTY OF OUR DEMOCRACY. IT DEPENDS ON GOOD PEOPLE, IT DEPENDS ON GOOD PEOPLE SERVING ON BOARDS AND VOLUNTEERS AND COMING OUT AND DELIVERING THEIR DIVERSE OPINIONS ON A VARIETY OF ISSUES. IT'S ALSO DEPENDENT UPON CIVILITY. IT'S DEPENDENT UPON MUTUAL RESPECT. IT'S DEPENDENT ON RESPECT FOR PEOPLE AS HUMAN BEINGS. TOO OFTEN I SEE I THINK IN POLITICS, THERE SEEMS TO BE AN OBJECT AT THIS IF I OCCASION OF PEOPLE, AND THAT'S PART OF MY PRESENTATION HERE. WE NEED TO START TAKING A LOOK AT HOW WE CAN MAKE THIS COUNTY BETTER, BETTER THAN IT'S EVER BEEN BEFORE, BETTER WHEN THAT THOUGHT IT COULD BE, AND YOU ALL ARE A VERY, VERY PART OF THAT. THE FIRST THING I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS IS THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD ITSELF. IT'S ALMOST LIKE STARTING THE CONSTITUTION. YOU'RE TAKING A LOOK AT A DOCUMENT THAT'S WORKED, SOMETIMES VERY WELL, SOMETIMES NOT SO WELL, OVER A COURSE OF A PERIOD OF TIME, AND IT'S BEEN CHANGED NOW AND AGAIN. THIS IS ONCE IN EVERY TEN YEARS OUR COMMUNITY TO -- OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE IT. I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE EVERY SINGLE CHANGE AND BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THOSE CHANGES. WHAT'S THE BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT? I THINK THAT'S REALLY THE NUMBER 1 QUESTION THAT PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN IN TERMS OF CHARTER REVIEW. IS THE COUNTY COMMISSION FORM OF GOVERNMENT THAT WE HAVE NOW THE BEST POSSIBLE FORUM TO SERVE OUR CITIZENS? WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHETHER OR NOT IT'S THE BEST FORUM NOT ONLY FOR TODAY BUT IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS. IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THIS COUNTY HAS CHANGED DRAMATICALLY IN THE LAST TEN YEARS. IN THE LAST 15 YEARS. IT'S A DIFFERENT COUNTY THAN IT WAS BEFORE. OUR BUDGET TODAY IS $2.2 BILLION. $1 BILLION APPROXIMATELY IS OUR OPERATING BUDGET. THE RESPONSIBILITIES WE HAVE ARE DIVERSE. THE COMMUNITIES OF SOUTH TAMPA AND BRANDON AND LUTZ AND KEYSTONE, ALL IMPORTANT, ALL OF THEM. AND WE HAVE TO THINK HOW WE CAN BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT. WE ALSO HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DELIVER A CLEAR AND COGENT AND CONSISTENT MESSAGE ABOUT WHAT THIS COUNTY GOVERNMENT STANDS FOR. IT'S PART OF DEMOCRACY. YOU MAY NOT AGREE WITH THE DIRECTION, BUT A 51% OF THE PEOPLE DECIDE THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE, IN A DEMOCRACY YOU JOIN HANDS AND WORK TOGETHER. THAT'S WHAT MAKES OUR COUNTRY GREAT. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND WHAT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE -- THE MOST OFTEN DEBATED TOPIC IS WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD HAVE A COUNTY MAYOR. SHOULD WE HAVE A COUNTY MAYOR OR NOT? AND THE QUESTION TO THAT -- THE ANSWER TO THAT IS REALLY, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY COUNTY MAYOR? WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT MEAN? IS IT AN EXECUTIVE WITH EXECUTIVE POWERS WHO ARE INDEPENDENTLY ELECTED MUCH LIKE THE MAYOR? IS IT THE CHAIR OF THE COUNTY COMMISSION WHO IS CALLED "COUNTY MAYOR", WHO APPOINTS OTHER COMMISSIONERS TO BOARDS AND COUNCILS? BOTH ARE COUNTY MAYORS. BUT WHAT IS IT THAT YOU REALLY MEAN? WHAT IS IT THAT WE MEAN? I THINK WHAT WE REALLY MEAN IS WE WANT SOMEONE WHO IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC FOR THE CONDUCT OF THE PUBLIC'S BUSINESS. THERE IS A LITTLE TALK BEFORE EARLIER BY COMMISSIONER FRANK BY A COUNTY AUDITOR. I HAVE HEARD SOME COMMENTS FROM SOME PEOPLE ABOUT IT, AND I KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN MEMOS CIRCULATED. AN ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE IS THE PERSON WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EFFICIENT RUNNING OF THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT. SO IF YOU HAD A COUNTY MAYOR, INDEPENDENTLY ELECTED, THEY WOULD BE -- THEY WOULD FILL THE ROLE OF THE AUDITOR. IT YOU -- IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY THE COUNTY YOU MAYOR, THE EXECUTIVE IS SPENDING THE MONEY, YOU VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE. I ALWAYS HEAR WELL WE ARE GOING TO GET SOMEBODY WE DON'T LIKE IN THAT JOB. WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT HAPPENS EVERY DAY, RIGHT? BUT WHAT YOU DO IS THEN YOU VOTE THEM OUT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM. IF THEY ARE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB, THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PUBLIC TO SPEAK OUT AND SPEAK UP. THE QUESTION IS, IF YOU HAD A COUNTY MAYOR FORM OF GOVERNMENT WHERE THE COUNTY MAYOR WAS THE EXECUTIVE OFFICER, WOULD YOU HAVE THE CHECKS AND BALANCES NECESSARY TO MAKE THAT POSITION FAIR, SUCCESSFUL, NOT A DICTATORSHIP. I ALWAYS HEAR IT IS A DICTATORSHIP. OUR OWN CONSTITUTION WAS A GREAT EXAMPLE. OUR CONSTITUTION WAS FORMED BY PEOPLE WHO WERE VERY, VERY, VERY BRILLIANT. I THINK WE WOULD ALL AGREE WITH THAT. THEY CAME UP WITH A SYSTEM THAT PROVIDED CHECKS AND BALANCES. SO IF YOU HAVE A COUNTY MAYOR WHO IS AN EXECUTIVE AND A LEGISLATIVE BRANCH THAT IS THE COMMISSION, MAYBE THE COMMISSION NEEDS TO HAVE ENOUGH CLOUT TO HAVE THE CHECKS AND BALANCES. HOW DO YOU DO THAT? THERE IS A VARIETY OF WAYS TO DO IT. YOU CAN DO THAT BY BUDGETARY AUTHORITY. THE COMMISSION CAN STILL HAVE BUDGETARY AUTHORITY. THE COUNTY MAYOR COULD STILL HAVE A PROFESSIONALIZED ORGANIZATION BY APPOINTING THE PROFESSIONAL COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR WITH THE SAME CREDENTIALS WE HAVE WITH THE ADVICE AND CONSENT OF THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTY COMMISSION, MAYBE A SUPER-MAJORITY OF THE COUNTY COMMISSION. BUT SOME WAY, THEY WOULD HAVE TO HIRE A PROFESSIONAL MANAGER AND GO TO THE COUNTY COMMISSION ON THAT. UNDER THAT SCENARIO, YOU MAY, INDEED, WANT A COUNTY COMMISSIONER -- AUDITOR, IF YOU ARE A COMMISSIONER. YOU NEED A BUDGET STAFF. AN ELECTED EXECUTIVE WHO HAS BEEN INDEPENDENTLY ELECTED BY ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY AND THE COMMISSION WHO IS THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, AND THAT LEGISLATIVE BRANCH NEEDS TO HAVE THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF CONFIDENCE THAT THE MONEY THEY'RE ALLOCATING THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS IS BEING SPENT PROPERLY. I THINK THAT IS ONE OF MY POINTS. IF YOU ARE GOING TO CONSIDER A COUNTY AUDITOR, IT MAKES THE MOST SENSE TO ME UNDER THE SCENARIO OF HAVING A COUNTY -- AN ELECTED COUNTY MAYOR WHO IS AN EXECUTIVE. LET ME TAKE THE NEXT CASE, WHICH IS IF YOU HAVE A COUNTY MAYOR WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNTY COMMISSION. THE -- THERE ARE SOME ADVANTAGES THERE, AND THERE ARE SOME DISADVANTAGES. THE ADVANTAGES ARE, YES, THE PERSON IS ELECTED, INDEPENDENTLY ELECTED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY. THE PERSON HAS THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF APPOINTING OTHER COMMISSIONERS TO BOARDS AND COUNCILS, WHICH I THINK IS A POWER THAT WOULD BE WELL USED AT SOME POINTS. THE COMMISSION CHAIR WHO WOULD NOW BE CALLED "COUNTY MAYOR" WOULD BE PAID MORE, HAVE A LITTLE MORE AUTHORITY. THEY WOULD REPRESENT THE COMMISSION AT EVENTS, AT STATE EVENTS WITH THE STATE OR VISITING DIGNITARIES. THEY WOULD BE THE DESIGNATED REPRESENTATIVE. WHAT THAT DOES IS PRESERVES THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK THE MAIN CONCERN I HEAR THAT THE ONLY ARGUMENT THAT I'VE HEARD ABOUT NOT HAVING AN ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE, THE ONLY ARGUMENT THAT MAKES SOME SENSE TO ME. IF YOU -- WE WANT TO HAVE THE BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT. WE WANT TO ATTRACT THE BEST PROFESSION TOOLS OUR GOVERNMENT SERVICE. AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS TO HAVE THAT KIND OF ABILITY TO WORK WITHIN THE SYSTEM. THE OTHER OPTIONS THAT'S IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU EXPAND THE COUNTY COMMISSION IF YOU HAVE AN ELECTED EXECUTIVE MAYOR. THERE MAY BE A NEED TO HAVE A MORE REPRESENTATIVE BODY. THAT BODY MAY HAVE MORE COMMISSIONERS ON IT. OR WE MAY CALL THEM COUNTY LEGISLATORS OR WHATEVER -- IN SOME PLACES THEY CALL THEM REPRESENTATIVES, IT JUST DEPENDS. IF THE COMMISSION WAS EXPANDED, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE REPRESENTATIVE -- IN MY OPINION, REPRESENTATIVE OF THE COMMUNITY, REPRESENTING THE DIVERSE POPULATION OF THE COMMUNITY, GIVING PEOPLE A VOICE. IF WE DID A COUNTY MAYOR WITH EXECUTIVE POWERS RIGHT NOW, YOU WOULD HAVE IN TERMS OF REPRESENTATIVES, IF YOU'RE A DISTRICT, IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE DISTRICT, YOU HAVE YOUR DISTRICT COMMISSIONER, THREE AT-LARGE COMMISSIONERS AND A COUNTY MAYOR. YOU WOULD HAVE FIVE. RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE FOUR. YOU ARE ACTUALLY GETTING MORE REPRESENTATION WITH THE COUNTY MAYOR. I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS. I'M NOT HERE TO SAY THAT I BELIEVE ONE OR THE OTHER IS THE BEST WAY TO GO, BUT I DO THINK THAT NEEDS -- THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THIS COUNTY SHOULD HAVE A COUNTY MAYOR IS THE FIRST ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE DECIDED BEFORE YOU START LOOKING AT A COUNTY AUDITOR. AND I'LL GET DOWN TO THE COUNTY AUDITOR POSITION NEXT. I DO BELIEVE THAT AN ISSUE -- THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT ELECTIONS FOR COUNTY COMMISSION SHOULD BE NONPARTISAN, IT'S IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER. IT USED TO BE THAT PEOPLE, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR PARTIES, WOULD HAVE A CAMPAIGN, THEY WOULD HAVE AN ELECTION, A LOT OF TIMES THEY WOULD BE TOUGH ELECTIONS, BUT THE END OF THE ELECTIONS PEOPLE WILL GET TOGETHER, THEY'D UNITE, BECAUSE THEY ARE WORKING FOR SOMETHING BETTER THAN THEMSELVES, HIGHER THAN THEMSELVES, THEIR COMMUNITY, THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS. I WAS WATCHING A DEBATE ON TELEVISION ON "MEET THE PRESS," ACTUALLY IT WASN'T A DEBATE BUT A DISCUSSION BETWEEN PRESIDENT CARTER AND PRESIDENT FORD. PRESIDENT CARTER WAS A DEMOCRAT AND PRESIDENT FORD WAS A REPUBLICAN. THEY RAN AGAINST EACH OTHER FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN 1976. THE MODERATOR ASKED PRESIDENT FORD IF HE THOUGHT THAT HIS PARDON OF PRESIDENT NIXON COST HIM THE ELECTION. HE SAID, WELL, IT WAS A VERY CLOSE ELECTION. IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENT -- WHOLE BUNCH OF DIFFERENT ISSUES THAT COST ME THE ELECTION, BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT MY GOOD FRIEND JIMMY CARTER WONG THAT ELECTION AND I'M PROUD TO CALL HIM MY FRIEND. AND I THINK THAT SAYS SOMETHING TO US TODAY. IT SAYS WE'VE LOST SOMETHING THAT WE HAD IN 198 -- 1976 AND WE NEED TO GET IT BACK. WHY WOULD YOU WANT NONPARTISAN ELECTIONS? BECAUSE I THINK AT THIS POINT PARTISANSHIP HAS HURT THIS COUNTY. IN ANY DIRECTION. I THINK WE NEED TO MOVE AWAY FROM PARTISANSHIP AND MOVE MORE TOWARD COOPERATION. PARTISANSHIP MAY WORK AT OTHER LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT; YOU MAY THINK IT DOES. WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF PEOPLE MOVING AWAY FROM STRONG IDENTIFICATIONS WITH POLITICAL PARTIES. I WOULD SAY THERE ARE TWO CHOICES, EITHER YOU GET BACK THE CIVILITY THAT WE'VE LOST AND THE RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER IN POLITICS TODAY, OR YOU DO NONPARTISAN ELECTIONS. ONE OR THE OTHER. I HAD THE HONOR AND PRIVILEGE OF DECLARING IT CIVILITY WEEK AT THIS COUNTY COMMISSION SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, AND IT WAS, INDEED, A PRIVILEGE TO DO THAT. DO WE NEED A COUNTY AUDITOR ESTABLISHED BY CHARTER IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY GOVERNMENT? I THINK THE FIRST QUESTION YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS IS ARE THE AUDITS USEFUL IN GENERAL? ARE THEY USEFUL? SINCE I'VE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT, I FOUND THAT SOME ARE AND SOME AREN'T, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, THE PERFORMANCE AUDITS -- PERFORMANCE AUDITS, NOT HAVING A COUNTY AUDITOR, BUT JUST THE PERFORMANCE AUDITS HAVE BEEN A USEFUL TOOL, AND THEY DO SAVE MONEY SOMETIMES. AT LEAST IT HASN'T BEEN PROVEN TO ME THAT IT DOESN'T. UNTIL I HAVE HEARD THAT IT DOESN'T -- OR BEEN PROVEN TO ME EMPIRICALLY, I'M NOT QUITE CONVINCED THAT THE AUDITS ARE NOT USEFUL AT THIS POINT. WE KNOW THE AUDITS ARE USEFUL. WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE AUDIT? TO MAKE GOVERNMENT EFFICIENT. THAT'S REALLY WHY YOU ELECT THE REPRESENTATIVES. I HAD THE PRIVILEGE TO VOTE ON THE MILLAGE RATE AND BUDGET FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, BIG BUDGET, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. BUT WHEN WE VOTED ON IT, WE WERE ABLE TO CUT TAXES. WE BELIEVE ABLE TO ADD MORE SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES, 41. WE WERE ABLE TO ADD MORE FIRE SERVICE PEOPLE. WE WERE ABLE TO ADD MORE ANIMAL SERVICE SPECIALISTS. CODE ENFORCEMENT. WE ARE LIVING IN VERY, VERY GOOD TIMES AND WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO MAKE GOVERNMENT MORE EFFICIENT. WE HAVE THAT OBLIGATION. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THIS COUNTY COMMISSION INITIATED OVER 100 RECOMMENDATIONS OF FLORIDA TAXWATCH AND WE HAVE MADE -- WE'VE ALREADY SAVED, I KNOW AT LEAST CONFIRMED 19 MILLION. SO WE ARE SAVING MONEY AND YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS HAVE THAT RESPONSIBILITY TO LOOK FOR WAIST. BUT WE ALSO NEED -- FOR WASTE. WE ALSO NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP. WE NEED FOR PROFESSIONALS TO GO IN AND SEE WHETHER CERTAIN AREAS OF OUR GOVERNMENT WORK OR DON'T WORK. THE QUESTION IS, SHOULD THAT BE DONE BY CHARTER? AND MY POINT WOULD BE THIS. IN TERMS OF OUR BUDGET PROCESS, WHAT HAPPENS IS THE ADMINISTRATION GIVES THE COMMISSIONER A FORM, THE FORM SAYS ALL THE ITEMS THAT ARE GOING TO BE ON THE BUDGET, ALL THE LINES, PAGES AND PAGES OF ALL THE LINES. THEY SAY DO YOU WANT TO SPEND MORE, KEEP IT AT ABOUT THE SAME, SPEND LESS. YOU CHECK IT. CHECK ONE AND THE OTHER, GO THROUGH THE WHOLE LIST. IT GOES BACK TO THE ADMINISTRATOR AND HE COMES BACK AND HELPS HIM TO DEVISE HIS RECOMMENDED BUDGET. WHEN HE GOES THROUGH THE RECOMMENDED BUDGET WE GO THROUGH A PROCESS CALLED "FLAGGING." WHERE EVERY COMMISSIONER GETS TO FLAG AN INDIVIDUAL ITEM IF HE GETS A SECOND ON A PARTICULAR ITEM. SOMETIMES IT IS FLAG IT TO SPEND LESS; SOMETIMES IT'S FLAGGED TO SPEND MORE. THAT'S THE PROCESS WE WENT THROUGH TODAY. WE HAD FLAGGED EVERYTHING AND MET TODAY TO GO THROUGH THE MILLAGE RATE AND DECIDE WHAT THE BUDGET IS. DO WE NEED MORE STAFF TO HELP COMMISSIONERS WITH THAT? I HAD THE BENEFIT OF BEING IN BUSINESS AND READING FINANCIAL STATEMENTS AND UNDERSTANDING A LITTLE BETTER. I THINK IT DID. SO I THINK THAT THAT MIGHT BE HELPFUL, BEEFING UP THE BUDGET STAFF. I AM NOT CONVINCED PERFORMANCE AUDITS NOT A GOOD IDEA. I THINK THEY MAY VERY WELL BE A GOOD IDEA. I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT A COUNTY AUDITOR IN THE PRESENT COMMISSION STRUCTURE IS GOING TO BE PRODUCTIVE. I'M NOT CONVINCED. I DIDN'T SAY I DON'T THINK IT IS THE BEST IDEA. I SAID I HAVE NOT BEEN CONVINCED. WHAT I'M AFRAID OF SOME OF WHICH THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED BY THE COUNTY STAFF, THE FINANCE PEOPLE, ABOUT HAVING A PERSON, AN INDIVIDUAL, WHO COULD BE MORE POLITICIZED PERSON WHO COULD ABUSE HIS POSITION. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY THE ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD TO MAKE SURE THAT NEVER HAPPENS AS POSSIBLE. IT'S ALL BASED ON HUMAN BEINGS, RIGHT. LET ME CONCLUDE BY SAYING THIS. MY ROLE AS A COMMISSIONER HAS BEEN A TREMENDOUS HONOR AND A PRIVILEGE. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT IN THESE TIMES TO BE INVOLVED IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS. UNFORTUNATELY, JUST THE VERY FACT THAT IT'S SO DIFFICULT DISCOURAGES PEOPLE FROM WANTING TO PARTICIPATE. WE SEE PEOPLE VOTING IN ELECTIONS, WHAT IS IT, 13%, 14%, 15% IN COUNTY ELECTIONS. WE ALL HERE CARE ABOUT WHERE OUR COMMUNITY GOES, AND WE HAVE A DEEP RESPONSIBILITY TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED, AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN HONORABLY AS WE CAN, AS HUMBLY AS WE CAN AND WITH RESPECT FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US. SO THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME. >>JAN SMITH: COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN, IF THERE ARE QUESTIONS, WILL YOU ENTERTAIN A FEW? >>BEN WACKSMAN: SURE, ABSOLUTELY. >>JAN SMITH: WE ARE GOING TO START THIS TIME AND GO AROUND THE BOARD. IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION, EACH BOARD MEMBER MAY ASK ONE QUESTION AND WE'LL GO AROUND. DANNY WILKES. >>DANNY WILKES: COMMISSIONER, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF ANYTHING TO IMPROVE THE CURRENT STRUCTURE OF THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT? >>BEN WACKSMAN: IF I COULD WAVE A MAGIC WAND? I WOULD START -- I WOULD START WITH THE -- SOMEHOW INCREASING THE ABILITY OF THE CHAIR TO CONDUCT -- CONDUCT OUR MEETINGS -- AND I THINK THAT CAN BE DONE JUST THROUGH CHANGES TO OUR AGENDA. YOU MEAN -- IF YOU ASK ME SPECIFICALLY WHAT IT IS, SORT OF ALMOST INTERNAL. WE HAVE AN AGENDA PROCESS, AND THAT'S HOW WE SET OUR PRIORITIES AND HOW THINGS GO. I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SOME MODIFICATIONS TO THAT, AND WE'VE ASKED -- FRANKLY I HAVE ASKED THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR TO PRESENT US WITH SOME WAYS TO DO THAT TO MAKE OUR MEETINGS A LITTLE BIT EASIER. YOU ARE SAYING WHAT CAN YOU DO UNDER THE CURRENT STRUCTURE IS WHAT YOUR QUESTION IS. IF WE CAN CHANGE IT SO THAT THE AGENDAS WERE SHORTER, IF OUR MEETINGS WERE IN THE MORNING, IF TIME CERTAINS WERE ACTUALLY TIME CERTAIN. WE HAVE CITIZENS -- ONE OF THE MOST DISCOURAGING THINGS -- IT IS DISCOURAGING FOR CITIZENS AND DISCOURAGING FOR US WHEN WE SAY THERE IS A TIME CERTAIN FOR 3 O'CLOCK AND EVERYONE COMES IN. PLACES LIKE SUN CITY AND ALL OVER THE COMMUNITY AND YOU COME IN AND THEN YOU HAVE TO WAIT. WE HAVE HAD PEOPLE ACTUALLY GO HOME. AND I THINK -- I THINK THAT CAN BE PREVENTED. I MADE THE RECOMMENDATION TO THE ADMINISTRATOR. I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT WENT BECAUSE HE HAD TO SPEAK WITH ALL THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS 37 WE CAN'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER UNDER THE SUNSHINE RULE. THE SUGGESTION WAS INSTEAD OF HAVING ONE LONG MEETING, HAVE A MEETING IN THE MORNING AND MAYBE THE MEETING THE NEXT DAY IN THE MORNING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHERE IT IS A HALF DAY. WHAT HAPPENS IS IT'S VERY, VERY LONG. WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING ON THE AGENDA LATE IN THE DAY, SOMETIMES IT'S GOOD AND OTHER TIMES NOT SO GOOD. BECAUSE EVERYONE IS A HUMAN BEING AND ONLY SPEND SO MUCH TIME AS A HUMAN BEING. IMMEDIATELY THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING I WOULD DO. YOU KNOW, I'M CERTAINLY AN ADVOCATE ALSO FOR INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF RESPECT FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US, NOT ONLY ON THE COMMISSION BUT IN THE COMMUNITY OF THE CITIZENS THAT COME AND THINK AND I THINK THOSE TWO THINGS IN AND OF IT SELF WILL GO A LONG WAY. >>JAN SMITH: MR. WHITE, ONE QUESTION, NO FOLLOW-UPS. >>GERALD WHITE: I'M SO IMPRESSED WITH COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN, I'M KIND OF LIKE SPEECHLESS. A DYNAMIC YOUNG MAN. YOU'RE APPOINTED BY FORMER GOVERNOR LAWTON CHILES, AND YOU ARE, IN A SENSE, YOU HAVE A FRESH PERSPECTIVE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN. YOU TALKED ABOUT WHAT YOU WANTED TO SEE CHANGED WITH THE PROCESS. THE ONLY THING I'M REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT IS AFRICAN-AMERICAN PARTICIPATION ON THE BOARD, AND I JUST WOULD LIKE YOU TO GO ON PUBLIC RECORD IF THIS GROUP DO NOT ADDRESS THAT ENSURING THAT THAT TAKE PLACE AFTER THE CENSUS IS COMPLETED. >>BEN WACKSMAN: WELL, I DON'T KNOW QUITE EXACTLY HOW TO ANSWER THAT OTHER THAN TO SAY THAT I BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE MORE DIVERSITY AND CERTAINLY MORE PARTICIPATION BY AFRICAN-AMERICAN CITIZENS IN OUR COMMUNITY IN EVERY ASPECT OF OUR COMMUNITY. I MEAN, I THINK -- BUT THE ONLY WAY -- THAT I KNOW TO REALLY MAKE THAT HAPPEN IS TO JUST KEEP TRYING TO ENCOURAGE IT -- TO WORK HARD TO -- WE WERE AT A CHAMBER OF COMMERCE MEETING THE OTHER DAY, AND COMMISSIONER SCOTT BROUGHT UP THE POINT OF MORE INCLUSION OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN BUSINESS PEOPLE ON THESE TRIPS THAT WE GO ON. AND THE CHAMBER WAS RECEPTIVE TO IT. WHAT MAKES A GREAT COMMUNITY IS THE COMMUNITY'S DIVERSITY. IT'S INTERESTING -- AND YOU ASK YOURSELF, WELL, WHY IS DIVERSITY IMPORTANT FOR THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. YOU THINK, WELL, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE INTERESTED IN THAT. WELL, IF YOU WANT TO LOCATE -- IF YOU WANT A COMPANY TO RELOCATE TO YOUR COMMUNITY, AND YOU CANNOT MAKE THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN EXECUTIVES OF THAT COMPANY COMFORTABLE, YOU WILL NOT GET THE CORPORATE RELOCATION. IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT. HOW DO I KNOW THAT? I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT BECAUSE WHEN I WAS IN PRIVATE BUSINESS, WE DEALT WITH AN ISSUE LIKE THAT. AND WE NEED TO MAKE THIS COMMUNITY MUCH MORE INCLUSIVE -- SIMPLE OF INCLUSION. I THINK WE ARE GETTING THIS, THOUGH. I THINK WE ARE MAKING A LOT OF GOOD PROGRESS. WE CERTAINLY HAVE A WAYS TO GO. I'M PROUD TO BE ON RECORD AS BEING COMMITTED TO IT. >>JAN SMITH: MR. BEDKE. >>MIKE BEDKE: BELIEVING THAT DIVERSITY WEAVES A STRONGER COMMUNITY FABRIC, WITH RESPECT TO THE CURRENT SIZE OF THE BOARD, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT'S TOO BIG, TOO SMALL, OR THAT IT SHOULD BE ENLARGED TO PERHAPS PROVIDE GREATER OPPORTUNITY? >>BEN WACKSMAN: IT'S A GOOD QUESTION. THERE ARE SOME BOARDS, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THAT HAVE SMALL MUNICIPALITIES HAVE, LIKE, 30 PEOPLE. A LOT OF IT DEPENDS ON THE STRUCTURE OF THE GOVERNMENT. FOR THIS STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT, UNLESS YOU CHANGED IT TO THE POINT WHERE YOU HAD AN ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE, THAT WOULD -- I DON'T THINK THERE REALLY IS THE ABILITY TO EXPAND IT AS MUCH AS YOU COULD IF YOU WERE TRYING TO CREATE A CHECK AND BALANCE SYSTEM. IF YOU EXPAND IT, YOU DIVERSIFY THE AMOUNT OF POWER IN THE VOTES OF THE COMMISSIONERS. NOW THAT, IN AND OF ITSELF, DEPENDING UPON HOW IT WAS STRUCTURED COULD BE A GOOD THING IF IT WAS ABLE TO INCREASE DIVERSITY. THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD THING. I'VE HEARD SOME PEOPLE -- MY DISTRICT -- TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. MY DISTRICT REPRESENTS 200,000. SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID MAYBE YOUR DISTRICT SHOULD BE CUT IN HALF. REPRESENT 100,000 PEOPLE. WON'T YOU REPRESENT THEM A LITTLE BETTER? THE CHALLENGE IS, YES, BUT HOW DO YOU BALANCE PAROCHIALISM WHERE YOU HAVE ONE COMMUNITY TRYING TO GET WHAT THEY CAN FOR THEMSELVES WITH THE OVERALL COUNTY AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE COUNTYWIDE COMMISSIONERS. I DON'T -- THE SHORT ANSWER IS, I REALLY DON'T KNOW, BUT I THINK IT WILL BE SOMETHING WORTH LOOKING INTO TO SEE IF THAT'S POSSIBLE OR WORTHWHILE AND WOULD HAVE SOME COMMUNITY SUPPORT. I THINK THAT MAY BE A GOOD IDEA TO DO THAT. THE WAY THESE COMMISSION -- THE COMMISSION JOBS ARE NOW, THEY ARE BASICALLY CALLED PART-TIME JOBS. THEY ARE TRULY NOT. IT'S VERY, VERY TIME CONSUMING. AS YOU CAN SEE I'M HERE AND IT'S AFTER SIX. >>JAN SMITH: SPEAKING OF THAT, COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN, DR. MacMANUS FROM USF IS ALSO HERE THIS EVENING AND SHE HAS ANOTHER ENGAGEMENT AT 8, COULD YOU STAY AND TAKE A FEW MORE QUESTIONS. >>BEN WACKSMAN: SURE. >>JAN SMITH: WOULD YOU MIND? >>BEN WACKSMAN: SURE. >>JAN SMITH: WE'LL COME BACK. BOARD MEMBERS, DR. MacMANUS WAS ON YOUR SCHEDULE. IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND WAITING FOR A FEW MINUTES AND WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM HER AND PROBABLY MAYBE LET DR. HORTON TALK AND LET BOTH OF YOU ON THE HOT SEAT FOR QUESTIONS. >>BEN WACKSMAN: MY PLEASURE. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: DR. MacMANUS. THIS IS A LADY THAT'S FROM LUTZ, IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW IT. IT'S AT THE NORTH END OF HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY ALONG THE PASCO COUNTY BORDER AND ABOUT THE MIDDLE. AND SHE IS A PROFESSOR AT USF AND HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS WITH HER MOTHER ABOUT LUTZ. THERE IS A NEW BOOK ON THE DEPOT AND THEN THERE'S "CRITTERS, CRACKERS, AND SAWMILLS." >> CITRUS, THE KING. >>JAN SMITH: CITRUS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE. >> THANK YOU. MY PLEASURE. I'M SORRY I HAVE TO GO, BUT I HAVE TO BE OVER AT CHANNEL 8. YOU UNDERSTAND -- WHAT CHAOS THERE IS AT THE MOMENT. SO I APPRECIATE THE CHANCE TO OFFER MY OPINIONS ON THIS. FIRST, I WAS ASKED BASICALLY TO COME BASICALLY FOR YOU TO ASK ME QUESTIONS. AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT I'M PREPARED TO DO AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST AND ONE THAT STUDIES LOCAL GOVERNMENTS IN FLORIDA FOR A LONG WHILE. THERE IS ONE THING I WILL START OUT BY SAYING BECAUSE I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN SOME OF THE SURVEYS WE'VE DONE FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY IN THE PAST, AND THEY STOPPED DOING THEM A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, BUT LET ME SAY THAT MORE AND MORE COUNTIES IN FLORIDA ARE DOING THEM. AND I WOULD RECOMMEND TO EACH OF YOU PERHAPS TO GET A COPY OF A REALLY EXCELLENT NEW PUBLICATION PUT OUT BY THE NEW -- BY THE INTERNATIONAL CITY-COUNTY MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION CALLED "CITIZEN SURVEYS: HOW TO DO THEM, HOW TO USE THEM, AND WHAT THEY MEAN." BECAUSE IN MY JUDGMENT, AND I THINK COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN TOUCHED ON IT IN HIS COMMENTS. PEOPLE NEED TO BE ASKED WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT ALL THIS. YOU ARE ONLY SEEING A HANDFUL OF ACTIVISTS. YOU ARE NOT GETTING A BROAD PICTURE OF WHAT THE PUBLIC THINKS. LET'S GET REAL. THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT IS TO HAVE A SURVEY. AND YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND GOING INTO A LOT OF MINUTIA AND I RESPECT THAT, BUT THE PUBLIC WOULD RESPECT BEING ASKED ALSO WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE THINGS ARE PUT ON THE BALLOT. AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT USF SHOULD DO IT OR WHATEVER ELSE, BUT I AM ADVISING YOU TO THINK ABOUT CITIZEN SURVEYS AS A TOOL TO REALLY FIND OUT WHAT PEOPLE THINK. DO THEY REALLY WANT THE CHARTER CHANGED? WHAT DO THEY THINK ABOUT AN ELECTED -- YOU KNOW, EXECUTIVE VERSUS APPOINTED. GET A READ ON IT. IF THERE IS SOMETHING THERE IS A GREAT CONSENSUS ON, OKAY. IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY SPLIT. IT'S AN UPHILL BATTLE BECAUSE EVERY POLITICAL SCIENCE TEXTBOOK THAT YOU PICK UP SHOWS THAT GETTING PEOPLE TO DO STRUCTURAL CHANGES IN GOVERNMENT IS VERY DIFFICULT, IT IS AN UPHILL BATTLE, BECAUSE FOR MANY PEOPLE, THEY PREFER THE STATUS QUO OVER CHANGE WHICH IS UNCERTAIN. AND THAT'S JUST REALITY. SO THAT'S MY POLITICAL SCIENCE HAT HERE. AND REALLY, I WAS TOLD THAT YOU WOULD HAVE QUESTIONS OF ME ABOUT WHAT THE PUBLIC OPINION SURVEYS SHOW ACROSS FLORIDA. >>JAN SMITH: THEN WE'LL DO THAT. >> THAT WOULD BE BEST. >>JAN SMITH: WE'LL GIVE YOU YOUR 15 MINUTES AND ASK YOU THE QUESTIONS AND LET YOU ANSWER. WE'LL START WITH MR. LaBOUR SINCE HE'S NEXT IN LINE AND WE WILL SEE WHAT QUESTIONS COME ABOUT FOR YOU. >>STEVE LaBOUR: THANK YOU, DR. MacMANUS AND THANK YOU FOR ALL THE WORK YOU DO FOR THIS COMMUNITY OVER THE YEARS. LET ME START WITH THE LAST THOUGHT YOU HAD ABOUT THE VALUE OF THE SURVEY. I DID -- WE DID GET A COPY OF THE LAST SURVEY THAT WAS DONE, AND I AM DISAPPOINTED THE COUNTY STILL ISN'T DOING THEM BECAUSE I DO THINK THEY ARE A VALUABLE TOOL. HOW DO YOU THINK -- OR WHAT'S THE -- THIS COMMUNITY'S READ FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE OR OTHER COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE STATE ON -- AT THIS LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT HAVING PARTISAN ELECTIONS, HAVING PEOPLE ACTUALLY BE REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT AND RUNNING AS A PARTY VERSUS BEING NONPARTISAN AND BELIEVING THAT POTHOLES AREN'T REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT? >> OF ALL OF THE STRUCTURAL CHANGES TYPICALLY, AND THIS IS SORT OF CONFIRMED BY SURVEYS DONE BY ICMA. EVERY SEVERAL YEARS THEY DO THESE STRUCTURAL SURVEYS. THE ONE ELEMENT THAT PEOPLE DO TEND TO TAKE THE MOST INTEREST IN AND SUPPORT IS NONPARTISAN ELECTIONS. NOW I HAVEN'T SEEN A POLL EXPLICITLY ON THAT TOPIC HERE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, BUT AS YOU KNOW, THE SCHOOL BOARD NOW HAS THE OPTION OR MANDATORY TO GO TO THAT. I DO THINK THAT THE PUBLIC IS INCREASINGLY LESS PARTISAN. I THINK ONE OF OUR EARLIER SPEAKERS TOLD THAT. YOU LOOK IN ONE IN FIVE VOTERS NOW AND FLORIDA AS AN INDEPENDENT, THEY DON'T IDENTIFY TO ANY PARTY AND THAT'S A PATTERN TYPICAL ACROSS THE COUNTRY. I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE PUBLIC WOULD BE INTERESTED IN, AT LEAST HAVING A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT IN MORE DETAIL. IN MY JUDGMENT, THINGS LIKE THE COUNTY AUDITOR ARE WAY OVER MOST PEOPLE'S INTERESTS IN WHAT COUNTY GOVERNMENT DOES FRANKLY. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: DISCUSSIONS I'VE HAD WITH PEOPLE AND CERTAINLY WITH ALL YOUR BACKGROUND, DO YOU THINK THAT THE NORMAL CITIZEN -- THE NORMAL CITIZEN -- IS THERE A NORMAL CITIZEN? [ LAUGHTER ] THE PERSON WHO VOTES WOULD BE INTERESTED IN A COUNTY MAYOR? DOES THAT SUBJECT EVER COME UP? >> IT COMES UP ALL THE TIME, AND IT'S BEEN DISCUSSED OFTEN, BUT YOU KNOW, THE TROUBLING PART IS NO ONE HAS EVER ASKED THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT IT. SIMPLE QUESTION. INEXPENSIVE, AND IT'S A WAY YOU CAN GET BROAD-BASED OPINION. ON THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION, AND THIS WAS ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. IF I HAD TO PICK -- LET ME JUST GIVE YOU A LITTLE KIND OF LEAD-IN HERE. IF I HAD TO PICK THE ONE STATE IN THE COUNTRY THAT BEST REFLECTS THE NATIONAL DEMOGRAPHICS, IT'S FLORIDA IN TERMS OF ITS RACIAL AND ETHNIC BACKGROUND, PARTY MIX, ET CETERA. IF I HAD TO PICK THE ONE COUNTY IN FLORIDA THAT BEST REPRESENTS FLORIDA IT'S HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY LARGE, DIVERSE, RAPIDLY CHANGING, VERY PARTISAN, COMPETITIVE COUNTY, AND THERE ISN'T ANYTHING LIKE A NORMAL CITIZEN BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF VIEWPOINTS AND THAT IS EVEN MORE REASON TO THINK OF WHO IS THINKING WHAT OF THOSE ISSUES. >>JAN SMITH: MS. LASHER. >>DENISE LASHER: THANK YOU. I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT TERM LIMITS. IT'S ANOTHER QUESTION THAT IS THROWN OUT ALL THE TIME. WE HAVE TERM LIMITS FOR OTHER -- YOU KNOW, FOR SOME LOCAL ELECTED OFFICES AND NOT FOR OTHERS. I WAS WONDERING WHAT YOUR FEEL IS FOR THAT ON THE PEOPLE THAT YOU SURVEY. AND, ALSO, IF YOU'LL COMMENT ON THE RESPONDENTS TO THESE SURVEYS. ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKELY TO VOTE? OR PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKELY TO FILL OUT SURVEYS. BECAUSE SOMETIMES THERE IS A DIFFERENCE THERE. >> THESE ARE NOT MAIL SURVEYS BUT TELEPHONE SURVEYS. THEY ARE WEIGHTED TO GET A MIX OF THE PROFILE OF THE COMMUNITY. >>DENISE LASHER: BUT ARE THEY VOTERS? PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY GO TO THE POLLS? >> CERTAINLY THAT -- WHEN YOU ASK THE QUESTION IF THEY ARE REGISTERED VOTERS. EVERYBODY REMEMBERS THEIR MOTHER AND CIVICS TEACHER WHETHER THEY ARE OR NOT. IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO DO THE BEST TYPE OF SURVEY IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT LIKELIHOOD OF SOMETHING PASSING, I WOULD WANT TO SAMPLE OFF OF THE REGISTERED VOTER LIST. AND MANY OF THESE POLLS DON'T DO THAT. >>DENISE LASHER: BUT AS FAR AS TERM LIMITS? >> TERM LIMITS IS VERY POPULAR. ABOUT 70% TO 80% OF THE PUBLIC REPEATEDLY SAYS THEY LIKE THEM. AND I'LL SHARE WITH YOU ANOTHER STATISTIC. I JUST READ A POLL THIS MORNING WHICH IS DONE BY THE GALLUP -- ONE OF THE NATIONAL POLLING FIRMS, WHICH ASKED ABOUT THE HONESTY AND INTEGRITY OF VARIOUS PROFESSIONS. NOW USED CAR SALESMEN ARE STILL AT THE BOTTOM, BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT RIGHT NOW POLITICIANS ONLY VIEWED AS AN HONEST AND INTEGRITY-ORIENTED PROFESSION BY 15% OF THE POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES. UNFORTUNATELY, THE MEDIA IS ONLY 27, BUT EDUCATORS ARE HIGH. SO I'LL TAKE MY EDUCATOR ROLE IN THAT. >>STEVE LaBOUR: AN INCREASE OR DEGREES IN THAT, DR. MacMANUS? >> THE HONESTY AND INTEGRITY DECREASED. THIS IS ANOTHER UPHILL BATTLE YOU HAVE IS THE OPINION OF POLITICIANS IN AMERICA AND FLORIDA AND HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY IS NOT REAL HIGH AT THE MOMENT, TO BE HONEST. I HATE TO SAY THIS WITH POLITICIANS SITTING IN HERE, BUT I'M GIVING YOU A PUBLIC OPINION, NOT MINE. I'M SHOWING YOU THE POLL RESULTS THAT I SEE EVERY DAY. I SUBSCRIBE TO ALL THE NATIONAL POLLS AND THE FLORIDA POLLS AS WELL. >>JAN SMITH: MR. HURLEY. >>DAVID HURLEY: I'LL PASS. >> I WAS CURIOUS WHAT KIND OF TIME FRAME A SURVEY -- IF WE CHOSE TO GET A SURVEY OF WHAT OUR CITIZENS THINK, WHAT PROCESS WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE? >> IT DEPENDS ON HOW MANY QUESTIONS YOU ASK, THE LENGTH OF THE SURVEY AND WHAT THEY CALL THE MARGIN OF ERROR, HOW ACCURATE YOU WANT TO BE. TYPICALLY, WE'VE BEEN DOING IN THE COUNTY SURVEYS I DO ACROSS FLORIDA, USUALLY ANYWHERE FROM 800 TO 1200, DEPENDING HOW MUCH YOUR MARGIN OF ERROR IS. IF IT'S A QUICK SURVEY, SHORT, A FEW NUMBER OF QUESTIONS, A FEW DEMOGRAPHICS, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO TO THREE WEEKS MAX. AND CERTAINLY THE PRICE OF SUCH A SURVEY DEPENDS UPON HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU NEED TO CALL. BECAUSE JUST TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. WE JUST FINISHED A SURVEY FOR SARASOTA COUNTY, AND I BELIEVE WE HAD 1900 BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO SAMPLE FOR EACH PLANNING AREA IN THEIR COUNTY, WHICH THEY DO EVERY YEAR NOW. AND I THINK TO GET 1900, WE HAD TO CALL 33,000 PEOPLE. BECAUSE IT'S GETTING INCREASINGLY HARDER TO SURVEY AS WELL BECAUSE EVERYBODY USES TELEMARKETING AN IT'S LIKE, CLUNK, THERE YOU GO. >>TERRY BALLARD: WE DON'T HAVE AN ELECTED EXECUTIVE IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY AND THERE'S A LOT OF FRUSTRATION WITH THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT OUT THERE. IS THERE ANY GOVERNMENTS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY HAVE LIKE THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR'S JOB PERFORMANCE LIKE THE SUPREME COURT RETAIN, NONRETAIN. >> THE RETENTION ELECTIONS? NOT THAT I'M FAMILIAR WITH. MOST OF THOSE RETENTIONS ARE BY THE BOARD THEMSELVES. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I WILL SAY THAT, IN REGARDS WITH HAVING ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVES, THERE IS -- IF YOU WANT TO SEE ALL THE COUNTIES THAT HAVE IT ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOG ON TO N.A.C.O., THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES, NACO.ORG AND CHECK WHERE IT SAYS COUNTY STRUCTURE AND YOU CAN SEE. I LOOKED AT ALL OF THEM BEFORE I CAME HERE ANTICIPATING THAT QUESTION. ALL SIZES, SHAPES, BUT IN GENERAL, THE INTEREST IN THE ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE IS PRIMARILY COMING FROM PLACES LIKE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, WHICH ARE VERY LARGE, AND A LOT OF NEWCOMERS HERE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH THE SERVICE DELIVERY PACKAGES EVERY STATE'S UNIQUE IN THAT REGARD. THEY ARE CONFUSED, THEY ARE FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHO TO CALL WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG. AND IT'S REALLY THE THING THAT INTERESTS MOST PEOPLE ABOUT A COUNTY EXECUTIVE IS THE ACCOUNTABLE OF BEING ABLE TO POINT THE FINGER AND SAYS, THE BUCK STOPS HERE. >>JAN SMITH: MS. WILLIAMS. >>DEE WILLIAMS: MY QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED ALSO. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: MR. BELTRAM. >>HENRY BELTRAN: YES, I HAD A QUESTION. IN REFERENCE TO THE PUBLIC BECAUSE I HAVE ENCOUNTERED A TREMENDOUS LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES AND FUNCTIONS. AND I WONDERED WHY THIS IS HAPPENING? LET ME ADD, I USED TO TEACH SOCIAL SCIENCE, BUT I HAVEN'T TAUGHT THAT FOR MANY YEARS NOW, BUT LATELY, I ENCOUNTER THAT PROBLEM. MOST OF THE PEOPLE THEY DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE ACTIVITIES OF THE DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT. THIS SEEMS TO BE A MAJOR PROBLEM IN OUR SOCIETY, ESPECIALLY TOO MANY IMMIGRANTS COME IN AND THEY DON'T GET FAMILIAR. >> WELL, I WISH I COULD JUST ATTRIBUTE IT TO IMMIGRANTS. BUT THE PROBLEM IS TWOFOLD IN ITS GENESIS. ONE IS -- AND WE'VE DONE SURVEYS ON THIS IN FLORIDA AS WELL. KIDS IN HIGH SCHOOL GET A REALLY LOUSY CIVICS EDUCATION. IT'S ALMOST PATHETIC. THEY LEARN NOTHING ABOUT LOCAL GOVERNMENT WHATSOEVER. IN OUR SURVEY OF USF COLLEGE STUDENTS THAT WE DID A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO NOW, AND THESE WERE ALL KIDS THAT WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL IN FLORIDA, ALL OVER THE STATE, NOT JUST HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. 66% SAY THEY NEVER HEARD ABOUT SCHOOL BOARDS, COUNTY COMMISSIONS, OR CITY COUNCILS WHILE THEY WERE IN SCHOOL. SO YOU GOT THAT YOUNGER GENERATION THAT DOESN'T KNOW A THING ABOUT LOCAL GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY NEVER HEARD ABOUT IT. WHEN YOU EVEN PUT ON TOP OF THAT THAT ONLY ONE-THIRD OF THE COUNTY -- HIGH SCHOOL KIDS GO ON TO BECOME COLLEGE GRADUATES, ALL THEY HAVE GOTTEN IN THEIR CIVICS EDUCATION IS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT AND NOTHING ABOUT LOCAL GOVERNMENT. THAT'S ONE PROBLEM AREA. THE SECOND IS THAT TWO-THIRDS OF FLORIDIANS WEREN'T BORN HERE. EVERYBODY CAME FROM SOME PLACE ELSE EXCEPT ME, I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN LUTZ. BUT ANYWAY, PEOPLE COME FROM ALL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY AND I CAN LIVE IN INDIANA AND COUNTIES DO ONE THING IN INDIANA, THEY DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE IN FLORIDA. OR CITIES OF CERTAIN SIZES DO DIFFERENT THINGS IN KENTUCKY OR GEORGIA OR NEW YORK OR WHEREVER. THE FUNCTIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES AND SERVICE ASSIGNMENTS ARE SO DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT IN EVERY STATE IN THE COUNTRY. AND OF COURSE IF YOU ARE A BELIEVER IN THE DECENTRALIZATION AND GOVERNMENT CLOSEST TO THE PEOPLE, YOU SAY, WELL, THAT'S GREAT. BUT WHAT IT MEANS WHEN PEOPLE MOVE HERE, THEY ARE VERY CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT GOVERNMENT DOES WHAT. AND I GUARANTEE YOU, IF I DID A SURVEY AND ASKED PEOPLE TO IDENTIFY AND TO NAME ONE CITY COUNCIL MEMBER OR ONE COUNTY COMMISSIONER, I WOULD SAY SAFELY PROBABLY TWO-THIRDS COULD NOT NAME EITHER. AND THIS IS A VERY TYPICAL PROBLEM IN HIGH GROWTH STATES LIKE OURS. >>HENRY BELTRAN: WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT WE DO TO LET THE PEOPLE ACQUIRE THE KNOWLEDGE WHERE TO GO, WHAT TO DO, AND WHAT DIRECTION? >> I THINK A LOT OF THAT IS COMING WITH -- YOU KNOW, IT STARTS -- OF COURSE I AM AN EDUCATOR, IT STARTS WITH THE EARLY YEARS AND YOUR HIGH SCHOOL CURRICULUM WHICH THE CIVIC -- THE SOCIAL SCIENCE ASSOCIATION OF FLORIDA AND THE AMERICAN FLORIDA BAR ASSOCIATION EDUCATION DIVISION ARE NOW WORKING TOGETHER TO TRY TO REMEDY SOME OF THAT, BUT IT JUST ALSO REQUIRES US TO, IN GOVERNMENT, TO BE A LITTLE MORE ADAPTIVE AND TO HAVE ALTERNATIVES TO COMING TO A MEETING LIKE THIS, A WAY TO EXPRESS PEOPLE. INTERNET IS AN INFORMATIONAL TOOL. KIOSK AT MALLS. WE HAVE SURVEYED THOSE KIND OF THINGS. WE ARE A COMMUNICATIVE VISUAL SOCIETY. WE ARE A TV ERA. WE CAN'T REACH PEOPLE WITH BROCHURES AND THAT KIND OF THING ANYMORE. WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE ELECTRONIC MEDIA IN LARGE PART. >>JAN SMITH: I SUSPECT THAT MR. BELTRAM, I BELIEVE, IS RUNNING FOR PUBLIC OFFICE? >>HENRY BELTRAN: YES, I'M RUNNING FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD. >>JAN SMITH: I'M SURE YOU WILL HEAR MORE FROM HIM HOW TO REACH THE STUDENTS. >> MANY PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SCHOOL BOARD IS. >>JAN SMITH: I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO DEE WILLIAMS. >>DEE WILLIAMS: DR. BELTRAM TRIGGERED A QUESTION WHEN WE GOT TO CIVICS. SINCE YOU ARE IN EDUCATION, WHY AND WHEN DID WE EVER GET AWAY OF TEACHING CIVICS. BECAUSE WHEN I WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL, IT WAS A REQUIREMENT. >> I'M NOT SURE I REALLY KNOW THE DATE OF THAT, BECAUSE I LEFT HOME TO GO TO SCHOOL WHEN I WAS 16, AND DIDN'T COME BACK UNTIL 12 YEARS AGO BACK HERE. SO I'M NOT REALLY SURE THAT HAPPENED. BUT I THINK IT'S BEEN WITHIN THE LAST TEN YEARS. >>DEE WILLIAMS: I'M SURE IT HAS. BECAUSE I WAS ASKED TO FIND SOME INFORMATION OF HOW FLORIDA GOVERNMENT WORKED AND I CALLED EAST BAY HIGH SCHOOL AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN I ASKED THEM WHAT KIND OF CIVICS BOOK DO YOU USE. >> IT IS A VERY SAD SCENARIO. ANYTHING THAT PEOPLE CAN DO TO RAISE AWARENESS OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE CONTROL OVER CURRICULUM. THIS IS AN AREA THAT IS IN TERRIBLE SHAPE IN OUR STATE. >>JAN SMITH: MR. BEDKE, DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION? >>MIKE BEDKE: I DO. MY QUESTION PERTAINS NOT TO WHAT THE POLLS SHOW BUT WHETHER OR NOT IN YOUR EXPERT OPINION MOVING TOWARDS A NONPARTISAN ELECTION FORMAT AND/OR HAVING A COUNTY MAYOR SYSTEM WOULD LIKELY RESULT IN BETTER GOVERNMENT FOR OUR COMMUNITY. >> CAN'T REALLY COMMENT ON THAT. THAT'S A VERY SUBJECTIVE COMMENTARY. LET ME CLARIFY. I LIVE IN PASCO COUNTY TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR I'M NOT SPEAKING FROM ANY KIND OF AGENDA WHEN I COME HERE. BUT ON -- THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY COIN. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT NONPARTISANSHIP AND PARTISANSHIP, ONE VERSUS THE OTHER. I'VE ALWAYS GIVEN YOU ONE OF THE REASONS WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN NONPARTISAN ELECTIONS AND THAT IS SIMPLY THE FACT THEY ARE TIRED OF PARTISAN POLITICS, THEY ARE INDEPENDENTS, ET CETERA. ON THE OTHER HAND, WE ALSO KNOW ONE OF THE OLDEST ADAGES OF POLITICS IS THE MORE COMPETITIVE THE ELECTION, THE HIGHER THE TURNOUT. THE MORE INTERESTED PEOPLE BECOME. AND PARTISAN ELECTIONS SERVE THAT PURPOSE IN GOVERNMENT. THE REAL PROBLEM IN MY JUDGMENT AND I THINK THIS IS BORNE UP BY RESEARCH AS WELL IS NOT NECESSARILY THE PARTISANSHIP OR NONPARTISANSHIP, ONE OF THE REAL PROBLEMS IS INCUMBENCY RETURN RATES. WHEN SOMEONE GETS IN, WHAT HAPPENS IS THE COMPETITION GOES DOWN. LOOK AT IT. WHEN YOU HAVE AN OPEN SEAT. JUST LOOK AT ALL THE RACES AROUND HERE WITH OPEN SEATS. YOU HAVE A FLURRY OF CANDIDATES. YOU HAVE PEOPLE REALLY INTERESTED WHEN IT IS THE SAME OL' SAME OL', YOU GET THE OPINIONS WHICH ARE JUST ON NPR THIS INK. A NEW SURVEY YOU WILL PROBABLY READ IN THE PAPER -- EXCUSE ME -- TOMORROW WHICH SAYS THAT ONE-THIRD OF THE POPULATION RIGHT NOW DOESN'T THINK IT MATTERS WHO IS ELECTED PRESIDENT. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. THIS IS WHERE WE'RE AT. A REAL ERA OF CYNICISM AND IT'S VERY TRAGIC. >>JAN SMITH: MR. WHITE. >>GERALD WHITE: YOU KNOW I'VE SAID THIS AND HAVE BEEN REPRIMANDED BY THE CHAIR FOR SAYING I DIDN'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING THAT THE PUBLIC DO NOT WANT. SO I'M PLEASED THAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT WE CONDUCT A SURVEY BECAUSE WE'VE DONE A SURVEY AMONGST OURSELVES AND WHAT OUR TOP 23 ISSUES ARE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, THE FIRST TIME THEY PUT TOGETHER ISSUES, THEY DIDN'T MAKE IT TO THE BALLOT BECAUSE OF THE JUDGE. AND THE SECOND -- THE NEXT TIME SOMETHING MADE IT TO THE BALLOT, THE PEOPLE VOTED IT DOWN. ANYTHING ADDITIONALLY WITH THE SURVEY THAT CAN HELP THE BOARD DO THE RIGHT THING BY THE PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THE NECESSARY CHANGES OR NOT MAKE CHANGES. I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO USE THIS BOARD -- THIS PROCESS, TO MAKE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY BETTER SO IF THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN A SURVEY, TOO, THAT WE CAN USE TO DO THE RIGHT THING BY THE PEOPLE? >> WELL, CERTAINLY, WHAT YOU ARE DOING AS A CHARTER COMMISSION IS SIMPLY OFFERING PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO VOTE SOMETHING UP OR DOWN. YOU ARE NOT REALLY MAKING A SUGGESTION. YOU ARE SAYING HERE IS SOMETHING. YOU VOTE ON IT. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT IF YOU ARE GOING TO PERSONALLY ENDORSE EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON. THAT'S TYPICALLY NOT THE WAY THAT EITHER CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDING CONVENTIONS OR ANY OF THAT THING WORK. YOU'RE PUTTING IT FORWARD TO THE PEOPLE. BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE TIMING OF THE ELECTION ON THESE IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF YOU GET THESE KINDS OF THINGS ON A VERY CROWDED BALLOT, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TREMENDOUS -- WHAT THEY CALL ROLL-OFF AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BALLOT AND A TREMENDOUS BIAS OF WHO ACTUALLY VOTES ON THOSE CHANGES AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT EITHER. I THINK IF YOU DO DECIDE TO PUT THESE ON, AND I KNOW THE LAW OF FLORIDA HAS CERTAIN TIME PERIODS YOU CAN HOLD ELECTIONS, I THINK THE TIME OF THE ELECTION IS SOMETHING YOU OUGHT TO CONSIDER IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GET THE PEOPLE'S ATTENTION AND NOT PUT IT IN A CROWDED BALLOT. >>JAN SMITH: MR. WILKES. >>DANNY WILKES: CLARIFICATION. >> YES. >>DANNY WILKES: WE CURRENTLY HAVE TWO MAJOR PARTIES, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS. INDEPENDENTS WE HEAR SO MUCH -- ARE NOT THEY A PARTY -- AREN'T THEY PART OF THE PARTISAN POLITICS THAT WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY TODAY? >> WELL, THEY ULTIMATELY BECOME THAT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, BUT, OF COURSE, THE WHOLE NOTION OF THE PRIMARY WHICH IS A NOMINATING ELECTION FOR THE PARTIES, THEY ARE CUT OUT OF THAT. EVEN THOUGH FLORIDIANS DID AMEND OUR CONSTITUTION A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO PERMITTING WHERE -- THERE IS A RACE WHERE THERE IS ONLY ONE PARTY THAT HAS CANDIDATES OFFERED UP, THEN ANYBODY CAN VOTE AND INDEPENDENTS CAN VOTE IN THAT PRIMARY SCENARIO, BUT ONLY THAT. EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE SOME THAT NOW THINK THAT THE RECENT CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT OR U.S. SUPREME COURT RULING ON THE CALIFORNIA CROSSOVER BALLOTS MIGHT PUT OUR AMENDMENT INTO JEOPARDY. BUT IT HASN'T BEEN TESTED YET. BUT AMENDMENT -- INDEPENDENTS ARE LARGELY UNDER AGE 50. MANY OF THEM ARE REGISTERED BY MOTOR VOTER, DRIVER LICENSE BUREAU, ET CETERA, AND THEY ARE VERY LOW TURNOUT VOTERS ACTUALLY. BUT WHAT WE ARE STARTING TO SEE AND THE EXIT POLLS ON THE PRIMARIES THIS YEAR HAVE SHOWN THAT THIS INDEPENDENT STREAK IS NOW STARTING TO GET INTO THE OLDER POPULATION WHICH ARE VERY HIGH TURNOUT VOTERS. AND PEOPLE ARE JUST REALLY KIND OF ALIENATED FROM THE KIND OF SORT OF, I GUESS, MEANNESS IN GOVERNMENT IN ELECTIONS, NASTY ELECTIONS. PEOPLE THAT SAY NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE MUST HAVE THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND IN MY JUDGMENT. >>DANNY WILKES: ARE THEY VOTING AS A BLOCK THEN? >> NO. >>JAN SMITH: DR. MacMANUS, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR'S POSITION AND THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THAT JOB. IN OUR CURRENT CHARTER, THERE ARE EDUCATIONAL AND EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS LISTED. AND I NOTICED YOU REFERENCED THAT BOOK THAT YOU HAVE THIS EVENING AS THE INTERNATIONAL -- >> CITY-COUNTY MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION. >>JAN SMITH: IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR COULD BE SELECTED BASED ON EITHER/OR RATHER THAN "AND"? FOR INSTANCE IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND, IF YOU HAVE A FEW YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS DAY AND AGE, CAN THEY COME IN AND MANAGE A CORPORATION LIKE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY? OR DO YOU BELIEVE THE EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE WITH -- >> YOU ARE ASKING -- ASKING A TEACHER THAT QUESTION? OF COURSE, I THINK THERE SHOULD BE EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS. THAT IS AN INDIVIDUAL DECISION EACH COMMUNITY HAS TO MAKE. BUT INCREASINGLY, WITH THE COMPLEXITY OF MANAGEMENT, EXPERIENCE, I BELIEVE, IS NOT ENOUGH, I THINK YOU NEED -- AND I DO BELIEVE IN CONTINUING EDUCATION. JUST BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A DEGREE, DOESN'T MEAN THE TIME TO TURN IS DONE AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO TO ANY NEW SEMINARS OR WHATEVER. I THINK MANAGEMENT SKILLS ARE VERY MUCH IN NEED AND VERY CONTINGENT UPON EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCES. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU. WE APPRECIATE YOU COMING. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I HATE TO RUN. I REALLY APOLOGIZE. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION THIS EVENING, FOR TAKING THE QUESTIONS, AND WE MAY CONTACT YOU IN THE FUTURE. >> IF I CAN BE OF ANY FURTHER HELP OR GET MATERIALS FOR YOU, PLEASE, BY ALL MEANS, CALL ME. >>JAN SMITH: WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO, BOARD MEMBERS, TO HAVE DR. SAM HORTON COME UP TO TALK TO US AND HE CAN MAKE HIS COMMENTS AND THEN WHAT I THINK WE'LL DO IS HAVE A GO AT COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN AND DR. HORTON AND SEE WHAT KIND OF RESPONSES WE CAN GET. DR. HORTON, WE ARE DELIGHTED THAT YOU COULD BE HERE. I KNOW THERE ARE MEMBERS ON THIS BOARD THAT WERE PARTICULARLY ANXIOUS TO SEE YOU. SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING. >> MADAM CHAIR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND THANK ALL OF YOU FOR HAVING ME AND FOR ALLOWING ME TO SHARE SOME INFORMATION WITH YOU. PROBABLY RAISE AS MANY QUESTIONS AS YOU RAISE BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT REQUIRE, I GUESS, MORE TECHNICAL EXPERTISE THAN I HAVE OR PERHAPS YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALLY, AND I'M MAKING SOME ASSUMPTIONS. BUT I THINK THE QUESTIONS NEED TO BE RAISED, AND I'M GOING TO START, FIRST OF ALL, BY LOOKING AT THE PRESENT DOCUMENT THAT WE HAVE AND THE PRESENT DOCUMENT SPEAKS IN SECTION 4.04 SIMPLY TALKS ABOUT RESIDENTIAL REQUIREMENTS AND LIMITS ON TERMS. THAT'S THE TOPIC. AND IN THAT IT INDICATES THAT PERSON IN ONE THROUGH FOUR WILL RUN IN RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS AND 5, 6, AND 7 WILL BE AT-LARGE DISTRICTS. THERE IS A TERM IN THERE THAT SAYS THAT SIX YEARS, AND I THINK THAT CAN BE EXTENDED THROUGH SOME MANIPULATION AS TO AT LEAST TEN YEARS. BUT I THINK THE INTENT THAT THERE WILL BE SOME LIMITATION AS TO HOW LONG THE PERSON COULD SERVE IN GOVERNMENT. UNDER THIS SCENARIO, AS PRESENTED, A PERSON THEORETICALLY CAN MAKE A CAREER OUT OF BEING IN POLITICS SIMPLY BY RUNNING IN DISTRICT 1 THROUGH 4 AND THEN RUNNING THROUGH COUNTYWIDE THE NEXT TERM AND THEN COMING BACK AND MOVING HIS RESIDENCE TO A DIFFERENT DISTRICT THE NEXT TIME. SO HE CAN RUN FOREVER, THEORETICALLY. SO IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, AND IF THE INTENT IS ONE SHOULD HAVE A LIMITED TIME IN GOVERNMENT, THEN WHAT SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE CHARTER IS, I THINK, A TIME WHEN A PERSON WOULD BE -- COULD NOT RUN TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS, OR SOME MORATORIUM ON THE AMOUNT OF TIME WE WON'T HAVE TO SIT OUT BEFORE WE COME BACK INTO GOVERNMENT, GET A FRESH LOOK IF YOU WOULD, GET INTO FRESH OCCUPATION. I THINK THAT IS A THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED IN THIS CHARTER. MY NEXT COMMENT, I DON'T WANT YOU TO MISCONSTRUE IT TO THINK THAT IN ANY WAY I'M ENDORSING A MAYOR OR A COUNTY ELECTED POSITION, BUT THE LANGUAGE IN THIS PARTICULAR CHARTER UNDER SEPARATION OF POWERS HAVE THESE WORDS. SEPARATION OF LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE POWERS. THE POWER OF THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT SHALL BE DIVIDED BETWEEN LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE BRANCHES. NO PERSON BELONGS TO BUN BRANCH SHALL EXERCISE ANY POWERS, PERTAINING TO OTHER BRANCHES UNLESS PROVIDED THEREIN. THAT'S NOT HOW WE FUNCTION OUT TO MY UNDERSTANDING. THE EXECUTIVE'S AUTHORITY IS VESTED IN THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR. AND THAT THE LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY THEORETICALLY IS IN THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. BUT, IN FACT, THE COUNTY COMMISSION ACTUALLY APPOINT THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR, EVALUATE HIM AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS. I'M NOT SAYING IN ANYWAY ENDORSING IT. BUT THIS LANGUAGE IS AMBIGUOUS IN THE WAY THE COUNTY IS OPERATING AT THIS POINT IN TIME. THE THIRD POINT I WANT TO MAKE IS THAT YOU KNOW WE ARE THOROUGHLY IN OPPOSITION TO A COUNTYWIDE MAYOR, STRONG MAYOR, ELECTED COMMISSION ANYTHING OTHER THAN HOW WE ARE OPERATING PRESENTLY. THERE MAY BE SOME TWEAKING OR SOME OTHER THINGS THAT MIGHT NEED TO BE DONE IN ORDER TO MAKE THE PRESENT COMMISSION FORM OF GOVERNMENT MORE EFFECTIVE. BUT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT AND LED TO BELIEVE THAT TWO HEADS ARE ALWAYS BETTER THAN ONE. I LIKE TO HEAR THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS ARGUING AMONG THEMSELVES. I LIKE TO HEAR THEM BRING DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW TO THE TABLE. AND ULTIMATELY COME TO SOME COMPROMISE THAT IN ALL THE EXPERIENCE I HAVE HAD HAS BEEN AT THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COUNTY. WHAT YOU HAVE WHEN YOU HAVE A ONE PERSON IN AUTHORITY VESTED IN ONE PERSON, THE DIFFERENCE WILL BE IF YOU GET A REAL, REALLY GOOD PERSON, THEN THINGS WORK VERY WELL. BUT IF YOU GET A BAD PERSON, AND HE'S THERE FOR A TERM OF FOUR YEARS, OR WHATEVER TERMS THAT YOU PUT, YOU HAVE A CHANCE FOR A -- A GREATER CHANCE OF CORRUPTION THAN WOULD YOU HAVE AT -- WITH AN EXTENDED COUNTY COMMISSION. IN OTHER WORDS, I THINK MOST BUSINESS PEOPLE, AND I HAVE TALKED WITH A LOT OF BUSINESS PEOPLE AT THE ROTARY AND A NUMBER OF OTHER PLACES AND A NUMBER OF THEM DO ENDORSE THAT STRONG PERSON BECAUSE THEY CAN GET THINGS DONE MORE EASILY. YOU CAN GO TO THAT PERSON AND YOU CAN CHARGE AHEAD. HE CAN MAKE A DECISION RIGHT NOW. BUT I HAVE TO REMIND YOU THAT GOVERNMENT IS NOT MADE FOR BUSINESSES. GOVERNMENT IS MADE FOR THE PEOPLE. OKAY. IT IS MADE FOR WHAT IS THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CONSTITUENCY OF THIS COUNTY. AND SO YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT SO THAT THE STRONG DOES NOT OVERWHELM THE WEAK. THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF GOVERNMENT IS TO PROTECT THE WEAK AND THE MINORITY AND THOSE PERSONS THAT ARE SOMEHOW DISENFRANCHISED FROM THOSE THAT ARE MOST POWERFUL. THE OTHER THING IS THE LARGER YOU GET OF THE MORE DIVERSE IN TERMS OF POPULATION, SIZE, GEOGRAPHIC, WHAT HAVE YOU, THE MORE DIFFICULT IT BECOMES TO HAVE CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS TO -- ASCEND TO THE TOP. IT BECOMES A MONEY ISSUE. IT BECOMES AN INFLUENCE ISSUE. A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT -- AND I HATE TO CALL NAMES, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATE GOVERNMENT NOW, AND EDUCATION OF MY BACKGROUND, TOO, DR. MacMANUS. THE COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION GOOD OR BAD, DID NOT COME FROM AN EDUCATION BACKGROUND. THE TWO PERSONS THAT ARE GOING TO RUN NOW OVER HERE IN THE PAPER, DO NOT COME FROM EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUNDS, BUT THE THING THEY HAVE IS NAME RECOGNITION AND THE ABILITY TO RAISE MONEY, WHETHER THEY'RE GOOD OR NOT OR WILL BE, THAT'S A JUDGMENT CALL. THAT'S NOT THE POINT I'M MAKING. THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT THE LARGER YOU BECOME, THE MORE DIFFICULT IT IS FOR YOU TO ACCESS ALL THE ABILITIES OF ALL THE CITIZENS WITHIN THAT PARTICULAR COMMUNITY. AND SO WE ARE OPPOSED TO A COUNTYWIDE ELECTED MAYOR. I WANT THAT VERY CLEAR. WE DON'T WANT TO OVERRIDE THE AUTHORITY OF THE COMMISSION TO LEGISLATURE AND TO HAVE DIALOGUE AMONG THEMSELVES AND COME UP WITH A CON ESSENTIAL WHETHER IT TAKES ONE DAY, TWO DAYS, FIVE DAYS, BUT COME UP WITH THAT. WE HAVE A TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY ON THE FOURTH POINT I WANT TO MAKE. IN THE LAST -- THIS CENSUS, WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO REDISTRICT AND THE QUESTION COMES, WHAT IS AN OPTIMUM SIZE FOR REPRESENTATION FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTY? IS SEVEN ENOUGH? IS EIGHT ENOUGH? IS TEN ENOUGH? I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT. I REALLY DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT, BUT I DO HAVE -- WHAT I CONSIDER A PRINCIPLE, AND THE PRINCIPLE SHOULD BE THAT WE'LL HOPE WHOEVER MAKES THAT DECISION WILL BE THAT WE MAKE AN OPTIMUM OPPORTUNITY FOR -- AND AN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION KIND OF ACTIVITY. IN OTHER WORDS, FOR ALL OF THE VARIOUS POPULATIONS TO BECOME PART OF THE GOVERNING PROCESS, AND THAT HAS TO BE SET FORTH BECAUSE WHEN YOU BEGIN TO DRAW LINES, PEOPLE TEND TO LOOK AT NUMBERS. 180,000, 120,000, WHATEVER THE NUMBER IS, BUT DO NOT LOOK AT THE REPRESENTATION THAT THOSE NUMBERS REPRESENT. SO AS WE BEGIN DOING THE REDRAWING OF LINES BECAUSE OF THE CENSUS AND ITS ABILITY -- THAT GIVES US THAT ABILITY, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE COMMUNITY. THERE IS A SHIFT DEMOGRAPHICALLY WITHIN THE COMMUNITY NOW. I CAN TELL YOU TWO DISTRICTS. ONE IN WHICH COMMISSIONER STORMS IS IN AT THIS TIME IS NOW BECOMING MORE AFRO-AMERICAN. THE ONE THAT COMMISSIONER SCOTT IS BECOMING LESS AFRICAN-AMERICAN BECAUSE OF HOPE SIX AND OTHER KINDS OF THINGS HAPPENING IN THE COMMUNITY. POPULATIONS ARE SHIFTING. THE KIND OF REPRESENTATION THAT WAS THERE BEFORE IS NOT THERE NOW. IT WILL NOT BE, AND UNLESS WE MAKE A CONCERTED OR DIRECTED STATEMENT TO THE PERSONS WHO WILL DO THE TECHNICAL KINDS OF DRAWINGS TO SAY BE SURE YOU LOOK AT THIS TO BE SURE WE INCLUDE DIVERSITY IN ALL OF OUR APPORTIONMENTS ARE AS APPROPRIATE OR AS -- THAT IS TENABLE, THEN LET'S DO THAT AT THAT TIME. IF WE DO THAT, I THINK WE WILL COME OUT WITH A BETTER PRODUCT. LET ME SAY THIS, SOME OF MY REMARKS, OF COURSE, ARE BASED ON MY OWN PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS. I HAVE BEEN HERE WHEN WE HAVE THE VOTING RIGHTS SCANDALS. YOU REMEMBER THAT? I REMEMBER THOSE. I REMEMBER WHEN WE HAD SOME COUNTY COMMISSIONERS DIETED. JUST GOT OUT TO RERUN AGAIN. SO I'VE SEEN THE GOVERNMENT FOR, LET'S SAY 17 AND A HALF YEARS. THAT'S HOW OLD I AM. MY COMMENTS ARE NOT BASED ON SOMETHING I'M TALKING ABOUT TODAY, I'M TALKING ABOUT -- I'M COMING FROM EXPERIENCE AND COMING FROM WHAT I THINK AND HOPEFULLY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THE FUTURE, TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE AND NOT JUST THE PICTURE OF CONVENIENCE. I WANT TO SAY ONE LAST THING. AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE REAPPORTIONMENT AS I WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT. IN THE ARTICLE, IT SAYS THIS. THAT ONCE THE DESCRIPTION OF THE BOUNDARIES ARE DRAWN, THAT WILL HAVE FOUR CONSECUTIVE WEEKS IN A NEWSPAPER OF GENERAL CIRCULATION PUBLISHED IN THE COUNTY. NOW THAT SEEMS SMALL. BUT WHAT NEWSPAPER? YOU KNOW. WHAT GENERAL CIRCULATION. AS WE HAVE BECOME SO DIVERSE SINCE THIS WAS CREATED, THERE ARE AT LEAST FOUR MAJOR NEWSPAPERS IN OUR COMMUNITY. THERE'S THE SENTINEL BULLETIN AND -- ANYONE WHO IS SPANISH, FORGIVE ME, LA GACETA, IS THAT CLOSE? THE TRIBUNE AND THE TIMES. THEY ARE FOUR MAJOR PUBLICATIONS. SO IF YOU -- WE PUT THIS ONLY IN ONE MAJOR PUBLICATION, WE DON'T GET THE INFORMATION OUT TO ALL OF THE PEOPLE. THAT SHOULD BE THE OBJECT OF WHAT WE ARE DOING AS A COMMISSION TO BE SURE THAT WHATEVER COMES UP IS REFLECTIVE OF THE VIEWS OF THE TOTAL COMMUNITY, AND THAT INCLUDES EVERYBODY. THANK YOU. THAT'S MY COMMENTS. I'LL ANSWER QUESTIONS. >>JAN SMITH: YES. DR. HIS OR HER -- DR. HORTON, WOULD LIKE TO START WITH MR. BELTRAM AND COME AROUND THE BOARD. THE QUESTIONS WILL BE EITHER TO YOU OR COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN. >> HE'S MY NEIGHBOR. >>JAN SMITH: MR. BELTRAM YOU'RE ON FIRST. >>HENRY BELTRAN: THAT WAS VERY GOOD INFORMATION, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST SINCE THE POPULATION OF HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY HAS MULTIPLIED TO TRIPLE -- IF IT'S NOT DOUBLED, BUT TRIPLED IN THE LAST 15 YEARS. AND DO YOU THINK ANY OTHER TYPE -- I FEEL THAT -- HAVING THE COMMISSIONER REPRESENTING US HAS DONE A FINE JOB, BUT WHAT CAN WE ADD TO IMPROVE WHAT WE HAVE? >> WE'LL BOTH RESPOND TO THAT. >>BEN WACKSMAN: YOU KNOW, I'M TRYING TO THINK ABOUT IT -- EXACTLY WHAT THE MAIN QUESTION IS. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WOULD -- I WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT, AND I APPRECIATE SAM'S OPINION ON THE COUNTY -- THE COUNTY MAYOR -- THE ELECTED COUNTY MAYOR. EVERY TIME I HEAR THE COUNTY MAYOR THING, THE COUNTY MAYOR ISSUE, IT BECOMES A LITTLE CONFUSING BECAUSE I ASK, WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY COUNTY MAYOR? I THINK IT REALLY HAS TO BE DEFINED. I BELIEVE IF -- YOU CAN HAVE A COUNTY MAYOR WHO IS THE COUNTY CHAIR, THE ELECTED COUNTY CHAIR WHO IS COUNTY MAYOR. YOU CAN HAVE AN EXPANDED COMMISSION THAT HAS A DIVERSITY; IT'S POSSIBLE. THAT WOULD BE THE JOB OF THE CULTURE TO DO THAT. ONE OF THE THINGS I ALSO WANT -- OF THE CHARTER REVIEW TO DO THAT. I DON'T WANT TO GIVE MY OPINIONS TO THE CHARTER REVIEW AS TO WHAT YOU SHOULD DO. I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR YOUR INDEPENDENCE. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PUBLICLY COME OUT IN FAVOR OF THE ELECTED COUNTY MAYOR EXECUTIVE, BUT I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT THE CONFERENCE -- THE CONFERENCING IS ABOUT. AND YOUR QUESTION -- THE MAIN PART OF YOUR QUESTION. >>HENRY BELTRAN: WHAT WOULD YOU DO SINCE WE HAVE A POPULATION THAT HAS GROWN TREMENDOUSLY AND WE STILL HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF COMMISSIONERS THAT WE HAD 15 YEARS AGO. >>BEN WACKSMAN: THAT'S MY ARGUMENT FOR CHANGING THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT. MY ARGUMENT IS THE COMMUNITY HAS BECOME SO LARGE, IT CONTINUES TO GROW. WE HAVE ABOUT 16,000 PEOPLE EVERY YEAR. I ALWAYS HEAR 16 TO 20. 16,000 -- 16,000 TO 20,000 PEOPLE COMING IN EVERY YEAR TO THIS COMMUNITY. IT'S GROWING VERY QUICKLY. WE NEED TO MAKE OUR GOVERNMENT AS RESPONSIVE AS WE POSSIBLY CAN. AND THAT'S WHY -- THAT WOULD BE MY SUGGESTION TO LOOK AT THAT -- THE DIFFERENT FORMS OF GOVERNMENT. EITHER THE COUNTY MAYOR CHAIR OR -- WITH NO EXECUTIVE POWER. THAT ONE HAS NO EXECUTIVE POWER. >> I UNDERSTAND. >>BEN WACKSMAN: OR THE ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE. WITH CHECKS AND BALANCES, WITH THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR APPOINTED BY THE COUNTY MAYOR BUT WITH THE ADVICE AND CONSENT OF THE COMMISSION. >> I BELIEVE THAT SMALLER IS BETTER. I THINK WE SHOULD ADD SOME -- AT LEAST SOME -- ONE OR TWO COMMISSIONERS DEPENDING ON WHAT THE CENSUS SHOWS US. JUST AS BEN INDICATED TO US THAT HIS GROWTH IN TOWN N' COUNTRY TO SOUTH TAMPA. I MEAN, HE DOES A GOOD JOB. THERE IS NO WAY HE CAN REPRESENT ALL THOSE PEOPLE ADEQUATELY BECAUSE IT IS TOO DIVERSE IN THEIR THINKING. TOWN N' COUNTRY WAS FIGHTING FOR THE BOY'S CLUB AND ALSO FOR THE HIGH SCHOOL, ET CETERA. HAD YOU PUT THAT DOWN IN SOUTH TAMPA, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE ACCEPTED THAT. SO I THINK WE NEED TO ADD AT LEAST ONE OR TWO OTHER PERSONS ON THE BOARD WITH SOME IDEA OF MAKING IT SMALL. AGAIN -- AN I WOULD NOT -- AS I SAID BEFORE, I LIKE THE COUNTY COMMISSIONS -- I LIKE FOR THEM TO HAVE DIALOGUE WITH EACH OTHER. I WOULD NOT WANT ANY PERSON ELECTED AI DON'T REMEMBER OR WHAT HAVE YOU THAT WILL HAVE VETO POWER OVER YOUR ACTIONS. I THINK THAT'S WHAT I NEED TO DO. I VETO YOU WHEN I DON'T ELECT YOU THE NEXT TIME. BUT WITH SOME OTHER PERSON. >>BEN WACKSMAN: JUST FOR THE RECORD, I WOULDN'T SUPPORT THAT KIND OF A COUNTY MAYOR EITHER. >>JAN SMITH: MS. WILLIAMS. >>DEE WILLIAMS: WELL, YOU JUST MADE THE REMARK, BEN, THAT YOU WOULDN'T WANT THIS COUNTY EXECUTIVE OR WHATEVER WE ARE GOING TO CALL HIM HAVE EXECUTIVE POWER. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE HIM DO? SORT OF ACT IN THE CAPACITY LIKE A VICE PRESIDENT DOES? BREAK THE TIE? >>BEN WACKSMAN: I'M SORRY. MAYBE I MISSTATED. I PREFER THE ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE. I PREFER THAT. FOR MYSELF, THAT'S MY OWN PERSONAL FEELING. I DON'T WANT TO IMPART THAT TO YOUR DELIBERATIONS AT ALL. I THINK YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE WHOLE -- ALL THE DIFFERENT ISSUES. THERE ARE TWO OPTIONS THOUGH. ONE IS THE EXECUTIVE THAT DOES HAVE THE POWER, BUT IT'S CHECKED BY THE LEGISLATURE. IT WORKS -- IT WORKS IN OUR GOVERNMENT. WE DON'T HAVE SEVEN PEOPLE SITTING AROUND DECIDING OUR NATIONAL DEFENSE ISSUES. WE HAVE ONE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. THAT'S THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT. THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE EXECUTIVE POWER. THE OTHER IS A COUNTY MAYOR -- IT'S CALLED COUNTY MAYOR, BUT IT DOES NOT HAVE EXECUTIVE POWER. THAT IS THE EQUIVALENT OF A CHAIR THAT IS ELECTED COUNTYWIDE, SPEAKS FOR THE GOVERNMENT, HAS THE ABILITY TO APPOINT EACH COMMISSIONER TO BOARDS AND COUNCILS, AND IS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE COMMUNITY TO EVENTS, MEETINGS WITH THE MAYOR, REPORTS BACK TO THE COMMISSION ALREADY BUT DOES NOT RUN THE GOVERNMENT. YOU STILL HAVE A PROFESSIONALISM OF THE GOVERNMENT. THE REASON I DON'T SAY I'M FOR THIS COUNTY EXECUTIVE IS BECAUSE -- THE ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE WHICH WE'LL CALL COUNTY MAYOR COMPLETELY UP FRONT BECAUSE I DON'T WANT YOU TO THINK I AM COMPLETELY BEATING AROUND THE BUSH. BECAUSE I WILL NOT SUPPORT ANYTHING THAT WILL DIMINISH THE ABILITY OF PROFESSIONAL MANAGERS TO BE -- TO DO THEIR JOB PROFESSIONALLY. I DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT. I WANT TO SEE PROFESSIONALISM. I WANT TO -- I DON'T WANT TO SEE POLITICS IN THAT. I DON'T WANT TO SEE CORRUPTION. ALL THE THINGS YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE IN THE DELIVERY OF SERVICE. UNTIL YOU SEE THE PRODUCT THAT YOU COME UP WITH, YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT. BUT THOSE ARE THE TWO OPTIONS. AND I THINK EITHER ONE OF THEM WILL BE A MODERNIZING OF OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT. IF DONE PROPERLY. >> I HAVE MADE MY COMMENT UNEQUIVOCALLY. YOU KNOW, I DON'T NEED TO COMPROMISE OR BEAT AROUND THE BUSH. I'M AGAINST THE PERSON ELECTED COUNTY MAYOR, COMMISSION CHAIR. I WOULD NOT WANT ONE. I KNOW YOU SAID THE PERSON ELECTED CHAIR, BUT I MEAN, I WOULDN'T WANT THAT CHAIR TO BE A PERFUNCTORY POSITION AND WOULDN'T WANT ANYONE TO REGULATE TO A PERFUNCTORY POSITION. WE HAVE THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT THAT WE HAVE NOW BUT WE JUST NEED TO TWEAK IT. >>DEE WILLIAMS: I'M SORRY I DON'T HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU, BUT YOU EXPRESS ALL THE SAME VIEWS THAT I HAVE TONIGHT, AND I ALMOST BELIEVE THAT WE BELONG TO THE SAME POLITICAL PARTY, BUT I KNOW BETTER. >>TERRY BALLARD: THERE IS A LOT OF FRUSTRATION IN THE COMMUNITY REGARDING CITIZEN COMPLAINTS AND TRYING TO GET TO THE PEOPLE. AND IN THE CHARTER, IN THE SEPARATION OF POWER -- UNDER THE LEGISLATIVE IN MANAGEMENT OR EXECUTIVE TYPE, THE PEOPLE GO TO THE ELECTED OFFICIALS, WHERE YOU GET A LOT OF COMPLAINTS, I'M SURE, IN YOUR DISTRICT. THEY KNOW THEY CAN TALK TO YOU, BUT UNDER THE SEPARATION OF POWER, YOU'RE REALLY NOT SUPPOSED TO GO BACK INTO THE OTHER AREAS AND THE DEPARTMENTS OR WHERE -- IS THIS A PROBLEM IN YOUR DISTRICT OR A PROBLEM DO YOU ALL SEE IN THE COMMUNITY? >>BEN WACKSMAN: IT HASN'T BEEN A PROBLEM FOR ME. WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS WE'LL GET A CONSTITUENT COMPLAINT, AND WE'LL PREPARE, WE'LL WORK ON IT AND FOLLOW IT. WE'LL PREPARE AN ADMINISTRATIVE DEFERRAL WHICH GOES TO THE ADMINISTRATION. WE SEE IF IT'S FOLLOWED UP. WE SPEAK TO THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR TO SEE WHAT THE PROBLEM IS. IT'S WORKED VERY WELL. WE CAME UP -- WE WERE JUST JOTTING DOWN NUMBERS AT ONE POINT WE WERE SAYING, WELL, WE HAVE START OF -- SORT OF A 90%-PLUS TO SOLVE PROBLEMS. NOT ONLY US BUT THE ADMINISTRATORS, THE PROFESSIONAL ADMINISTRATORS. IT COMES TO US AND IT WORKS THROUGH. THAT PART OF IT SEEMS TO WORK VERY WELL. >>JAN SMITH: MS. WALDRON. >> CAN I HEAR YOUR OPINION REGARDING THE SINGLE DISTRICTS VERSUS AT-LARGE? >>BEN WACKSMAN: THE WAY THEY ARE NOW? >> WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MAYBE INCREASING THEM. >>BEN WACKSMAN: IT'S -- I -- I THINK THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO BALANCE IT OUT. YOU WOULD HAVE TO -- IF YOU HAD MAYBE ONE ELECTED CHAIR -- MAYBE WOULD YOU HAVE A LOT OF -- THEN THERE IS NO NEED FOR COUNTYWIDE COMMISSIONER. YOU WOULD HAVE ALL DISTRICT COMMISSIONERS. THAT'S ONE WAY TO DO IT. IT WOULD REALLY DEPEND ON THE FORM THAT YOU CHOSE FOR THE GOVERNMENT. THE FORM OF THE GOVERNMENT ITSELF. THE WAY IT WORKS NOW, I THINK IS FAIRLY GOOD. I MEAN, YOU HAVE A BALANCE BETWEEN THE COUNTYWIDE COMMISSIONERS WHO ARE VIEWING A WHOLE BUNCH OF DIFFERENT THINGS. THE COUNTY -- THE DISTRICT COMMISSIONERS, WHICH ARE LOOKING AT THEIR DISTRICT, BUT I WANT TO SAY THIS, THEY ARE ALSO LOOKING COUNTYWIDE. THEY ARE LOOKING AT IT THIS DISTRICT BUT THEY ALL LIVE IN IN COUNTY. THEIR CONCERNS GO WAY BEYOND THEIR OWN DISTRICT. THAT PART OF THIS SYSTEM SEEMS TO ME FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN TO WORK FAIRLY WELL SO FAR. >> MY OPINION WOULD BE THAT, AGAIN, WOULD BE A BALANCE, BUT NOT AN OVERABUNDANCE OF THE AT-LARGE POSITIONS. AND, AGAIN, I REITERATE THE FACT HOW ONE IS FORCED TO LOOK AT THE ENTIRE COUNTY. BUT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT. THIS IS A VERY LARGE, LARGE, LARGE COUNTY. I RAN FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD SO I KNOW HOW LARGE IT IS. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR A PERSON AT-LARGE TO COVER THIS COUNTY AND GENERATE THE KIND OF SUPPORT THAT YOU NEED. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT FROM REVIEWS. SO BALLOTS IS WHAT I WOULD ADVOCATE AT THIS TIME -- A BALANCE. >>JAN SMITH: MR. HURLEY. >> INSTANCE YOU HAVE A PART-TIME JOB AND ONLY WORK 60 HOURS A WEEK. SINCE I AM A BUSINESS OWNER AND WORK HALF DAYS AND WHICHEVER 12 HOURS I PICK. IF YOU CUT YOUR DISTRICT FROM 200,000 AND 100,000 BY CUTTING IT IN HALF YOU CAN SPEND 1 MINUTE AND 52 SECONDS TO EACH ONE OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS IN A YEAR. IS IT REALLY GOING TO BE A LOT MORE EFFECTIVE REPRESENTATION OF 100,000 PEOPLE THAN THERE IS OF 200,000 PEOPLE. >>BEN WACKSMAN: DAVID, YOU SOUND LIKE AN ENGINEER OR SOMETHING. [ LAUGHTER ] HERE IS MY THINKING ON IT. IF THE JOB IS REALLY A PART-TIME JOB, MAKE IT PART-TIME. IF IT IS NOT PART-TIME, MAKE IT FULL-TIME. ONE WAY TO DO IT IS TO BE CUTTING THE DISTRICT DOWN. I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. I DON'T THINK THAT'S NECESSARILY ONE ANSWER. IT MAY BE AN ANSWER UNDER DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES. I THINK WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS WORKING WITH DIFFERENT -- YOU NEED TO WORK WITH DIFFERENT PERMUTATIONS ON WHAT YOU DECIDE TO DO. YOU DECIDE TO STAY -- KEEP THE GOVERNMENT THE WAY IT IS. MAYBE THEN YOU LOOK AT THE POSSIBILITY OF CUT -- OF MAKING DISTRICTS A LITTLE SMALLER. MAKE YOU LOOK AT -- AND MABEL YOU -- MAYBE YOU FIND OUT AFTER PUBLIC HEARINGS THAT IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA FOR VARIOUS REASONS, BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE LOOKED AT. MAYBE THE JOB SHOULD REALLY BE PART-TIME JOBS; MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T. IT'S JUST THE BALANCE AND THOSE ARE ISSUES THAT ARE BOTH GRAPPLING WITH. I WOULD ARGUE THAT IF YOU ADDRESS THE MAIN ISSUE THAT I THINK IS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE THAT ALL THE REST REVOLVE AROUND, WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO, IF ANYTHING, ABOUT THE COUNTY MAYOR ISSUE AND YOU MAY DO NOTHING, WITH AS I CERTAINLY AN OPTION, THEN THE ISSUE BECOMES, ARE THOSE OTHER CHANGES GOING TO BE WORTHWHILE AND GET BETTER REPRESENTATION, MORE CITIZEN INVOLVEMENT TO OUR RESIDENTS? AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY THE QUESTION. >>DAVID HURLEY: DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE TOO MUCH PAROCHIALISM BY HAVING MORE COMMISSIONERS IN SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS? >>BEN WACKSMAN: THERE WILL BE. IF THIS IS WAS A LEGISLATURE LIKE THE CONGRESS WHERE YOU ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE SUNSHINE, I THINK PROBABLY IT WILL WORK. BECAUSE YOU ARE SUBJECT TO THE SUNSHINE, IT IS DIFFICULT TO WORK AS A LEGISLATIVE -- IN A LEGISLATIVE ARENA LIKE THAT. IT MAY NOT BE AS FEASIBLE. SO IT'S HARD TO SAY. I MEAN, IT'S TOUGH. THESE ARE ALL TOUGH ISSUES. I DON'T ENVY YOU. YOU ARE MAKING MY JOB LOOK REALLY -- WELL, ALMOST EASY. >>JAN SMITH: MS. LASHER. >>DENISE LASHER: MY TYPICAL QUESTION, I GUESS I ASK BECAUSE I KNOW EVERYBODY IS GOING TO ASK ALL THESE OTHERS. WE ALL SEEM TO ASK SIMILAR QUESTIONS OF EACH SPEAKERS SO WE CAN KIND OF TELL WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE IS GOING TO ASK. I'M PROBABLY MORE TYPICAL THAN MOST. DR. HORTON, YOU HAVE SHARED WITH US YOUR OPINION ON TERM LIMITS, PARTICULARLY REGARDING THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND HOW YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT CHANGED IN THE CHARTER WHERE THEY WILL HAVE TO SIT OUT FOR TWO YEARS BEFORE THEY CAN SWITCH AND RUN FOR WHETHER -- BACK TO SINGLE -- THEY ARE A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT OR AT LARGE. THIS QUESTION IS FOR BOTH OF YOU. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON TERM LIMITS FOR THE OTHER LOCAL ELECTSED OFFICIALS WHO CURRENTLY DO NOT -- ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO CURRENTLY DO NOT HAVE TERM LIMITS. >>BEN WACKSMAN: CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS? >>DENISE LASHER: WE CANNOT AFFECT THE SCHOOL BOARD IN THAT AREA, I WISH WE COULD, BUT WE CAN'T. AS FAR AS CONSTITUTIONAL. >> WELL, I SUPPORT TERM LIMITS. I DON'T KNOW HOW THE TERMS SHOULD BE, BUT I THINK AT ONE TIME I DID NOT. BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO DEVELOP EXPERTISE, YOU KNOW, IN A PARTICULAR AREA, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I REALIZE THERE IS ALSO THAT POSSIBILITY OF KINGDOM BUILDING. THAT BECOMES A GREATER CHANCE AT PAROCHIALISM THAN IF YOU WOULD HAVE A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND. I THINK ONE NEEDS TO SERVE A GOOD BIT OF TIME, LEARN THE JOB, BUT THEN COME UP WITH FRESH IDEAS, LET NEW PEOPLE COME ON AND THEN BE INVOLVED AND THEN SIT OUT AND TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THEY'VE DONE, WHAT THEY'VE DONE AND THEN TO SAY I WANT TO RUN AGAIN OR NOT WANT TO RUN AGAIN. >>BEN WACKSMAN: I THINK UNDER THE BEST DOCTOR BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES, ELECTIONS ARE THE BEST TERM LIMITS. UNDER THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES. UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT HAPPENED -- REMEMBER WHEN THIS WHOLE TERM LIMIT THING CAME UP, PEOPLE WERE UPSET THAT INCUMBENTS KEPT GETTING ELECTED AND ELECTED AND THE SAME PEOPLE AND THINGS WEREN'T GOING ANYWHERE. I REMEMBER WHEN CONGRESS GAVE THEMSELVES A PAY RAISE. IT WAS REALLY BUILDING UP A LOT OF RESENTMENT ABOUT WHERE OUR GOVERNMENT WAS GOING. AND I SUPPORTED IT -- I SUPPORTED TERM LIMITS ALL AROUND THE FIRST TIME IT HAPPENED. WHEN YOU START THINKING ABOUT WHETHER IT IS A GOOD POLICY, IT REALLY DEPENDS, TO ME, IF WE HAVE SOLVED THAT PROBLEM YET. I DON'T THINK SO. UNTIL WE HAVE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM AND UNTIL WE LOOK AT THE WAY WE ELECT CANDIDATES, UNTIL WE REALIZE THAT THE MEDIA IS SO EXPENSIVE. WE -- YOU KNOW, WE MAY NEED TERM LIMITS. >>JAN SMITH: MS. TUTTLE. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: I READ AND I THINK THIS IS CORRECT THAT OUT OF OUR SEVEN COMMISSIONERS, ONLY TWO LIVE IN AN UNINCORPORATED HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. AND THAT IS JIM NORMAN AND RONDA STORMS. THE REST OF THEM LIVE IN THE CITY OF TAMPA, MOST OF THEM FAIRLY CLOSE TO WHERE I LIVE IN SOUTH TAMPA OR HYDE PARK, AROUND IN THERE. DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE A BETTER GOVERNMENT IF WE REQUIRED PEOPLE FROM THE DISTRICTS ANYWAY TO LIVE IN THE UNINCORPORATED AREAS? I KNOW THAT DISTRICT THREE, COMMISSIONER SCOTT'S DISTRICT COULD NOT DO THAT BECAUSE IT IS ALL IN THE CITY, BUT DO YOU THINK THAT A REDRAWING AND SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO LIVE IN A PLACE TO REALLY KNOW SOME OF THE PROBLEMS. YOU DON'T ALWAYS, BUT THERE IS THAT SENTIMENT OUT THERE. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR BOTH YOUR VIEWS ON THAT. >>BEN WACKSMAN: I CAN SAY -- I CAN SAY I'VE LIVED IN THE UNINCORPORATED PART IN TOWN N' COUNTRY. I HAVE LIVED IN THE UNINCORPORATED PART OF MY DISTRICT AND KNOW IT VERY WELL, BUT I THINK AS LONG AS THE RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT YOU HAVE TO MAKE AS -- I THINK IS AS EASY AS POSSIBLE TO GET PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE AND WANT TO RUN FOR OFFICE. THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE WE HAVE TODAY IS GETTING THE BEST PEOPLE TO WANT TO RUN FOR OFFICE AND SERVE. WHEN I WAS A KID GROWING UP, PUBLIC SERVICE WAS CONSIDERED AN HONOR. IT WAS A PRIVILEGE. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT YOU DID, AND IF YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY, IT WAS THE GREATEST THING YOU COULD DO. IT'S NOT THAT WAY ANYMORE. WE JUST HEARD SUSAN MacMANUS TELL US THAT 15% OF THE PEOPLE THINK THAT POLITICIANS DOING GOOD THINGS. THAT'S WAY DOWN FROM THE '60s AND THE '70s AND, YOU KNOW, WE CAN SIT HERE AND GNAW OUR TEETH ON IT. WHAT DO YOU DO? YOU PERFORM HONORABLY IN THE JOBS YOU HAVE. YOU SET AN EXAMPLE IN YOUR LEADERSHIP WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND HOPEFULLY, SOMEHOW, WE CAN MAKE SOME REFORMS THAT MAKE IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED. BUT WE HAVE TO TRY. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASY. >> WELL, I DO -- I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE UNINCORPORATED PART, BUT I THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOME CONTROL OF -- LET'S SAY OF THE PERSON -- SO A PERSON CANNOT -- SO TOO MANY CAN RUN IN THE SAME DISTRICT AND -- I CAN NAME THE ENTITY NOW, A GOVERNMENT ENTITY, WHERE THREE OF THOSE PEOPLE LIVE IN THE SAME DISTRICT AND CAN'T CONTROL WHAT GOES IN THAT DISTRICT. THAT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT. THAT'S VERY, VERY MORE PAROCHIAL THAN WHAT YOU CAN DO. THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE CONTROL OF WHERE ONE COMES FROM AND WHERE HE LIVES. >>JAN SMITH: MR. LaBOUR. >>STEVE LaBOUR: THANK YOU. I REALLY DON'T HAVE A QUESTION BUT I JUST HAVE A COMMENT. FIRST OF ALL, ON THE ISSUES OF REDISTRICTING AND THANK YOU, DR. HORTON, FOR BRINGING THOSE ISSUES TO US. I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH YOU. IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF NUMBERS. UNFORTUNATELY IT'S HOW IT IS LOOKED TOO OFTEN. IT SPEAKS TO MR. HURLEY'S QUESTION. AN ISSUE OF CONSTITUENCIES AND HOW CONSTITUENCIES ARE REPRESENTED AND IN THE DRAWING OF THOSE DISTRICTS, WE CAN BE MINDFUL OF THAT. I APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOUR SERVICE TO THIS COMMUNITY. CERTAINLY YOURS DR. HORTON FOR SO MANY YEARS AND THANK YOU MR. WACKSMAN FOR STEPPING FORWARD AND TAKING THAT CALL WHEN THE GOVERNOR CALLED THAT YOU WERE WILLING TO PUT YOUR PERSONAL LIFE BEFORE US AS IT IS. AND YOUR THOUGHTFUL AND THOROUGH PRESENTATIONS I THINK WERE EXTREMELY HELPFUL TO THIS BOARD, AND I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: MR. BEDKE. >>MIKE BEDKE: ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT, COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THE HONOR OF SERVING WITH THIS BODY OR HAVE A LITTLE TRIP TO THE WOODSHED. [ LAUGHTER ] DR. HORTON, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE -- BEN JUST USED THE WORD "REFORM." WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY -- WHAT'S THE NUMBER ONE REFORM OF THIS SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT YOU ARE HEARING ABOUT THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE US ADDRESS? >> REPRESENTATION. THAT'S VERY SIMPLY PUT. HOW CAN WE GET MORE PEOPLE ON THE BOARD WHO REPRESENT US. THAT'S THE BIGGEST ISSUE IN THE COMMUNITY. >>MIKE BEDKE: THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: MR. WHITE. >>GERALD WHITE: DR. HORTON, THANK YOU FOR COMING AS PRESIDENT OF THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY NAACP, I APPRECIATE YOU ACCEPTING THIS BOARD'S INVITATION. I'VE TRIED TO EDUCATE THE BOARD MEMBERS ON AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND HISPANIC COMMUNITY CONCERNS. AND I THINK YOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD TONIGHT. AND I BELIEVE IT'S IN THE HEARTS AND THE MINDS OF THIS BOARD WHAT THE MINORITY COMMUNITY'S CONCERNS ARE. AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU COMING TONIGHT. THE ONLY ADDITIONAL CONCERN THAT I HAVE THAT CONTINUES TO RISE IS THIS PARTISAN ELECTION ISSUE. DEMOCRAT VERSUS REPUBLICAN, INDEPENDENT, TAKING IT OFF THE BALLOT AND MAKING THE SEATS NONPARTISAN. HISTORICALLY, THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY VOTES DEMOCRATIC IN THIS COUNTY. DO YOU SEE NONPARTISANSHIP AFFECTING REPRESENTATION? IN THIS COUNTY? >> CERTAINLY. I THINK YOU ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION THAT MOST OF THEM VOTE OVERWHELMINGLY DEMOCRATIC. ON THE OTHER HAND, I WILL HAVE TO EXAMINE -- I THINK THERE IS A SHIFT THAT SOMEONE MENTIONED THE INDEPENDENT VOTERS THAT YOU FIND MORE AND MORE VOTERS IN THE COMMUNITY WHO INDEPENDENTLY VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATE AND THE IDEAS AS OPPOSED TO JUST SIMPLY A STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC TICKET. SO I WOULD PROBABLY SUPPORT AND REPRESENT THE NAACP TO RELOOK AT THE PARTISANSHIP VERSUS THE NONPARTISANSHIP. I'M NOT READY TO ENDORSE ANY POSITION RIGHT AT THE POINT, BUT TO SAY THAT, YES, IF IT WERE PARTISAN AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT AND IN THE VOTING PATTERNS PERSIST, YEAH, IT WOULD AFFECT THE NUMBER OF VOTERS. >>JAN SMITH: MR. WILKES. >>DANNY WILKES: THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND ON EACH OF YOUR POSITIONS. THERE IS ONE QUESTION I'D LIKE TO ASK BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENCE IN POSITIONS HERE. DO YOU SEE A STRONG ELECTED COUNTY MAYOR BEING A FIRST STEP TOWARD CONSOLIDATION? >> THAT'S YOURS. >>BEN WACKSMAN: YOU REALLY HAVE TO FIRST START BY DEFINING A STRONG ELECTED COUNTY MAYOR. I GUESS THE SHORT ANSWER IS, NO. BECAUSE I DON'T THINK CONSOLIDATION RIGHT NOW -- ANYBODY IS READY FOR IT. IF THIS CHARTER REVIEW BOARD PUT THAT ON THE BALLOT, I THINK THAT'S A HUGE LEAP. IT MAY BE TEN YEARS -- YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS OR SO OFF, 15 YEARS, 20 YEARS, I DON'T KNOW. BUT THE ISSUE REALLY NOW IS THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT. WHEN YOU SAY STRONG COUNTY MAYOR, DOES THAT MEAN THE COUNTY ELECTED COUNTY CHAIR WHO IS CALLED COUNTY MAYOR? DOES IT MEAN A COUNTY EXECUTIVE WITH UNBRIDLED POWERS THAT NOBODY WANTS? I DON'T WANT THAT. DOES IT MEAN A COUNTY MAYOR DULY ELECTED BY ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY WHO HAS TO APPOINT A PROFESSIONAL COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR BY CHARTER, WHO HAS A CHECK AND BALANCE WITH A VERY STRONG LEGISLATIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PEOPLE EVERY FOUR YEARS, TWO YEARS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S BETTER, WHO IF THERE ARE MISDEEDS IN OFFICE CAN EITHER BE REMOVED FROM THE GOVERNOR OR IMPEACHED BY PETITION, WHICH CAN HAPPEN NOW. IS THAT THE STRONG MAYOR? I MEAN, IT JUST DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEFINE STRONG MAYOR FORM OF GOVERNMENT. I'D LIKE TO SEE IT DONE IN A WAY THAT'S PROBABLY NOT ANYWHERE ELSE IN THIS COUNTY WHERE YOU DO HAVE A STRONG LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, WHERE YOU HAVE ADEQUATE CHECKS AND BALANCES, WHERE YOU HAVE STRONG ETHICAL BOUNDARIES THAT THE COUNTY MAYOR WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CROSS. WHERE THE COUNTY MAYOR WILL HAVE TO BE RESPONSIVE TO ALL CONSTITUENCIES. UNDER THAT SCENARIO, MAYBE YOU DO HAVE AN EXPANDED LEGISLATIVE BRANCH WHERE EVERYONE HAS ONE VOTE, BUT THE VOTE IS OVER A BUDGET THAT'S ABOUT $2.2 BILLION. 1 BILLION OF IT OPERATING BUDGET. THAT'S WHERE THE INFLUENCE OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH IS. IT'S IN THE BUDGET PROCESS. IF YOU MAKE THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS STRONGER, THAT WILL END UP CREATING THE ADEQUATE CHECKS AND BALANCES TO MAKE THE EXECUTIVE FEASIBLE. I DON'T WANT A STRONG MAYOR RUNNING RAMPANT. I DON'T WANT SOMEBODY WITH AN AGENDA OF CONSOLIDATION. I WANT THIS COUNTY TO GO INTO THESE NEXT TEN YEARS STRONG, DYNAMIC, AND ABLE TO RESPOND TO THE CHANGES THAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW, AND RESPONSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC. VERY RESPONSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC. AND I THINK THOSE -- THOSE ARE THE -- THOSE ARE THE ISSUES. THE ONE LAST THING, TOO, THAT I WANT TO SAY IS ON THE BUDGET ISSUE. ONE OF THE WAYS THAT THE COMMISSIONERS WHO FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE BUDGET ISSUE CAN HANDLE THAT IS BY BEEFING UP SOME OF THE STAFFING OF THE BUDGET STAFFING FOR THE COMMISSION AND HAVE THEM AVAILABLE ALL THE TIME FOR PEOPLE WHO NEED IT. SO, ANYWAY, THAT'S -- >>JAN SMITH: DR. HORTON, I HAVE TWO COMMENTS TO MAKE FIRST. WE DO -- AS A MEMBER -- AS CHARTER REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS AND WITH OUR EXECUTIVE, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE AN EFFORT TO MAKE SURE THAT A SUMMARY OF OUR MEETINGS AND ANY MEETING NOTICES ARE IN ALL THE LOCAL NEWSPAPERS. EVERYTHING FROM THE SENTINEL TO THE TRIBUNE AND THE TIMES AND LA GACETA AND THE PENNY SAVER AND THE NEIGHBORHOOD PAPERS, THE TAMPA RECORD, ALL OF THEM. WE ARE TRYING TO HIT ALL OF THEM IN AN EFFORT TO REACH OUT. I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT YOUR INTEREST IN TERM LIMITS. THE CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS, ACCORDING TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION, CAN BE BROUGHT UNDER THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT. THEY CAN THEN BE EITHER ELECTED OR APPOINTED. AND IT HAS BEEN SAID THAT SINCE THEIR JOBS ARE ADMINISTRATIVE AND LONGEVITY IS A BENEFIT IN LEARNING THE JOB, DO YOU HAVE A PREFERENCE REGARDING THE CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS AND WHETHER OR NOT ANY OF THEM COULD COME UNDER THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT? >> NO. I WOULDN'T WANT TO ADDRESS THAT BECAUSE I HAVE NOT STUDIED ADEQUATELY TO ADDRESS IT, AND I DON'T WANT TO TALK OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. SO I WOULD LIKE TO DEFER THAT, IF I WOULD. >>JAN SMITH: SURE. THANK YOU. I WASN'T GOING TO MAKE YOU ANSWER THAT. >>BEN WACKSMAN: I'LL ANSWER THAT. I WOULD OPPOSE THAT. I THINK IF YOU ARE GOING TO EXPERIMENT -- IF WE DID EXPERIMENT WITH A COUNTY MAYOR FORM OF GOVERNMENT, THAT WILL BE TOO MUCH POWER FOR ONE -- ONE PERSON. THAT WILL BE AN UNBALANCED SYSTEM. AND WHAT I WOULD BE AIMING FOR IS A TRUE BALANCE OF POWERS. >>JAN SMITH: GENTLEMEN, I APPRECIATE YOU COMING. >> ONE FINAL COMMENT TO RESPOND TO YOU, MR. WILKES, THAT -- AND HIS QUESTION ABOUT THIS PRECURSOR OF A CONSOLIDATION. I MEAN, I'M ALWAYS PESSIMISTIC, I'M WARY OF ANYBODY BRINGING GIFTS LIKE THIS. I CAN REMEMBER IN PLANT CITY, IN TEMPLE TERRACE GOT A CC FROM HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY WHEN THIS FIRST CAME UP AND THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTY CHARTER AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH TEMPLE TERRACE, PLANT CITY, COUNTY MAYOR, INDEPENDENT, THOSE KIND OF THINGS. WHEN I SEE THIS COMING UP, I GET A FLAG. LET'S FIX WHAT WE HAVE HERE, LET'S LEAVE THEM ALONE AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THIS, THE NAACP -- I REPRESENT THE NAACP. A LOT OF THE COMMENTS WERE ALL PART OF MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. I DO WANT -- SOME PEOPLE ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN THEY HEAR THE WORD NAACP BECAUSE IT HAS COLORED IN IT. LET ME SAY THAT NAAC 3, WAS FOUNDED BAY RATION GROUP IN 1909 AND HAS AS ITS OBJECTIVE ALL OF THIS TIME IS THE BETTERMENT OF ALL PEOPLE. NO MATTER WHAT COLOR YOU ARE. WE ARE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. OUR COMMENTS ARE BASED ON WHAT'S BEST FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, NOT FOR ANY PARTICULAR MINORITY GROUP OR ANYBODY ELSE, JUST TO SAY IF I LOOK IN THE FUTURE AND SEE WHERE WE NEED TO GO, THEN THIS IS WHAT IS BEST FOR US. THESE ARE THE RECOMMENDATIONS WE WANT TO GIVE TO YOU. WE WILL BE READY TO VOTE IF WE DON'T LIKE WHAT WE SEE. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BOTH BEING HERE THIS EVENING. COMMISSIONER WACKSMAN, THANKS FOR EXTENDING YOUR DAY. IF EITHER OF YOU HEAR ANYTHING, WATCH THIS PROCEEDINGS, AND HAVE ANYTHING WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEND US TO OR IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO COME BACK AND MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS, WE WOULD BE MOST HAPPY TO HEAR FROM YOU. THANK YOU. >>BEN WACKSMAN: AND ALSO, IF THERE ARE ANY QUESTIONS THAT THE COMMISSION HAS THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO ASK OF ME, FEEL FREE TO ASK. I WOULD LIKE TO LET YOU ALL DELIBERATE. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU. BOARD MEMBERS, IT'S 8:30, AND SINCE WE HAVE A HALF AN HOUR LATE START, I'D LIKE THE MEETING TO GO UNTIL 9:30, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A TEN-MINUTE BREAK. IF THAT'S OKAY WITH EVERYONE, WE'LL TAKE A BREAK AND WE'LL COME BACK AT 20 OF, AND CONTINUE DISCUSSIONS. >>JAN SMITH: [INAUDIBLE] THANKS, BOARD MEMBERS, FOR COMING BACK. MR. BALLARD, DID YOU HAVE A COMMENT TO MAKE? >>TERRY BALLARD: YES. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US SWITCH NINE AND TEN ON THE AGENDA. JUST PUT TEN AHEAD OF NUMBER NINE. >>JAN SMITH: ACTUALLY, WHAT I HAD THOUGHT I WOULD DO IS TO -- BEFORE -- IF WE DISCUSS THE AUDITOR, WHICH I'M SURE WE WILL, I AM GOING TO LET MR. HUGHES HAVE HIS FIVE MINUTES BEFORE THAT. IF, IN FACT, MR. HUGHES HAS ANYTHING AND HE WANTS TO GET INTO A BACK AND FORTH WITH MR. HUNZEKER, THEN WE ARE GOING TO DO IT. WE ARE GOING TO LET THE QUESTIONS BE ASKED AND LET THEM FIRE AWAY. I DON'T EXPECT IT TO TAKE MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES PER PERSON, AND THEN WE'LL GET INTO THE BOARD DISCUSSION ON THAT. BUT WE DO HAVE A COUPLE OF JUST HOUSEKEEPING THINGS. >> THIS IS ANYBODY ELSE THAT WANTS TO SPEAK TO BECAUSE A LOT OF THEM HAVE BEEN WAITING. >>JAN SMITH: IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO THAT. MR. LaBOUR. >>STEVE LaBOUR: I CERTAINLY CHERISH ANYONE WHO WISHES TO COME AND TALK TO US ABOUT THEIR POINT OF VIEW. I WOULD HOPE WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET INTO A SITUATION WHERE A SPEAKER IS GOING TO START GETTING INTO A QUESTION-AND-ANSWER SESSION WITH SOMEONE OTHER THAN A BOARD MEMBER. >>JAN SMITH: YES, I HOPE. >>STEVE LaBOUR: IF MR. HUGHES RAISES ISSUES IN HIS PRESENTATION, I THINK THAT IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR STAFF TO ANSWER, AND I WOULD BE -- LIKE TO BE THE ONE TO ASK THE STAFF THE QUESTION AND NOT MR. HUGHES. I JUST WANT TO -- >>JAN SMITH: THAT'S FINE. I DON'T MEAN FOR MR. HUGHES AND MR. HUNZEKER TO GET INTO A DISCUSSION. I MEAN FOR EACH ONE OF THEM TO HAVE WHATEVER IT IS THAT THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY FOR US TO SAY BEFORE WE GET INTO OUR OWN DISCUSSION, AND THEN IF THE BOARD WANTS TO ASK EITHER ONE OF THEM QUESTIONS, YOU MAY. >>STEVE LaBOUR: THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIRMAN. >>JAN SMITH: THANK YOU, MR. BALLARD. I APPRECIATE THAT. GLAD YOU ARE IN AGREEMENT OR I AM IN AGREEMENT OR WE ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT IT APPEARS. FIRST WE ARE GOING TO HAVE SOME COMMENTS FROM THE COUNTY ATTORNEY. I ASKED HER TO LOOK INTO THE ISSUE TO MAKE SURE WE'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT THAT IF THERE IS A VOTE OF THIS BOARD TO TAKE ANYTHING TO PUBLIC HEARING, SHE IS GOING TO GIVE US THE TIME FRAME THAT WE HAVE TO ACT IN AND WHEN OUR PUBLIC HEARINGS WILL BE, AND SHE CAN ALSO TELL US HOW THE VOTE MUST GO. SO THANK YOU, MS. CAMPBELL, FOR SPENDING THE EVENING WITH US AGAIN. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: THANK YOU. MARY HELEN CAMPBELL, SENIOR ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY FOR THE RECORD. I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY SOME DATES FOR THE BOARD IF THEY ARE STILL LOOKING AT POSSIBLY PURSUING PUTTING A PROPOSAL ON THE NOVEMBER 2000 BALLOT. AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TAKES 60 DAYS TO PRECLEAR A REQUEST. IN THIS CASE, IT WOULD BE PRECLEARING THE DATE OF THE REFERENDUM, WHICH WOULD BE ON A GENERAL ELECTION BALLOT. WHILE I DO NOT PERCEIVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH GETTING THE PRECLEARANCE, THEY DO HAVE THE 60 DAYS TO DO THAT, AND I WOULD NOT WANT TO GAMBLE WITH THIS TO ASSUME THAT THEY MIGHT DO THAT FASTER. IN FACT, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF THE LIGHT IT'S A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR. SO IF YOU BACK THAT UP AND GIVE US A FEW DAYS FOR MAILING, BOTH SENDING IT UP AND RECEIVING THE LETTER BACK, WE ARE LOOKING AT AROUND AUGUST 25th FOR ME TO SEND THE FINAL PACKAGE UP TO JUSTICE. AND I WANT THE BOARD TO UNDERSTAND, THE FINAL PACKAGE, THE U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL NOT LOOK AT IT UNLESS IT'S FORMALLY AND DULY ADOPTED BY THIS BOARD, WHICH MEANS BEFORE THEN YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS. THE CHARTER DOES NOT SPECIFY THAT THEY BE ANY TIME FRAME APART, BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS, AND WE HAVE TO HAVE THE FINAL RESOLUTION WITH THE LANGUAGE AND THE BALLOT LANGUAGE THAT WILL APPEAR ON THE BALLOT DONE AND SIGNED OFF BY THE BOARD SO THAT I CAN SEND IT UP TO JUSTICE. THE -- AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, WHEN YOU ADOPT THE RESOLUTION THAT CALLS FOR THE REFERENDUM, THAT MUST BE DONE BY AN AFFIRMATIVE VOTE OF TEN MEMBERS; HOWEVER, TO SET IT FOR PUBLIC HEARING, YOU COULD DO THAT BY A MAJORITY OF THE BOARD. SO THERE IS A DIFFERENCE THERE IN THE NUMBER OF VOTES TAKEN. YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE THAT ARE FOR THE IDEA BEFORE YOU GO THROUGH THE EXPENSE AND ADVERTISEMENT OF A PUBLIC HEARING. THE OTHER THING THAT I WANTED TO SAY EARLY ON, WE PROVIDED A MEMORANDUM DEALING WITH THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD PUT SOMETHING ON BOTH THE 2000 AND 2002 BALLOTS. IT WAS OUR OPINION THAT THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE CHARTER LANGUAGE AND NOTHING WE COULD FIND IN THE HISTORY OF THE DELIBERATIONS THAT WOULD PROHIBIT THIS BOARD FROM DOING THAT. WE ALSO MENTIONED -- AND I WANT TO MENTION AGAIN -- THAT THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT SOMEBODY MAY CHALLENGE IT. I THINK THAT WE WOULD PREVAIL IN COURT IF IT WAS CHALLENGED BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING PROHIBITING IT, BUT I WANT THE BOARD TO BE AWARE THAT THAT IS A POSSIBILITY THAT THAT COULD HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. OTHER THAN THAT, I THINK THAT YOU DO HAVE SOME MEETINGS AVAILABLE BETWEEN NOW AND AUGUST 25th, BUT IT IS COMING DOWN CLOSE UPON THE BOARD, AND SO WITH THAT, I'LL BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT ANYBODY HAS ON THE ISSUE. >>JAN SMITH: ANY QUESTIONS, BOARD MEMBERS? THANK YOU. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: BARBARA MERRITT, OUR EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR. BY THE WAY, BOARD MEMBERS, YOU GOT SOME MORE INFORMATION IN YOUR PACKET TODAY THAT I HAD ASKED MS. MERRITT TO GET TO YOU, AND THAT'S THE STATE STATUTES ON THE COUNTY BUDGET AND THE WHOLE PROCESS THAT THE COUNTY IS REQUIRED TO GO THROUGH FOR THEIR BUDGET ON -- BASED ON STATE LAW. ALSO, THE DETERMINATION OF MILLAGE. AND I -- I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MANY OF YOU REALLY WANTED TO READ THE STATE STATUTES, BUT I THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT TO YOU AS YOU ARE CONSIDERING THIS AUDITOR IDEA AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE STATE LAW REQUIRES ANYWAY. ALSO, IN YOUR PACKET, IS -- ARE TWO BLUE PAGES, AND I HOPE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THEM. THESE -- THIS IS A RANKING OF THE ISSUES THAT THIS BOARD WANTED TO DISCUSS, AND AT SOME POINT THIS EVENING, IF WE HAVE SOME TIME LEFT, I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT HOW YOU WOULD LIKE TO PROCEED WITH THESE. BUT MS. MERRITT HAS A FEW THINGS TO GIVE US, AND THEN WE ARE GOING TO GET BACK TO OUR DISCUSSIONS. >>BARBARA MERRITT: WELL, FIRST I WANT TO TELL YOU ALL THAT OUR OFFICE HAS MOVED FROM 505 EAST JACKSON STREET. WE ARE NOW LOCATED IN THIS BUILDING ON THE 26th FLOOR, WHICH WILL BE A TEMPORARY MOVE. I WILL BE MOVING -- I THINK MR. HUNZEKER TOLD ME -- TO THE 24th FLOOR. BUT I'M IN BOXES, SO I CAN DO ANYTHING. LIKE TONIGHT, I'M SORRY ABOUT THAT LITTLE BIT OF CONFUSION. BUT WE DID OKAY. HTV HAS BEEN WORKING VERY HARD TO GET THE WORD OUT ABOUT THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD. WE'RE FILLERS ON DIFFERENT PROGRAMS. COMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT. I SEND OUT APPROXIMATELY 45 NEWS RELEASES, AND THEY SEND OUT NEWS RELEASES. WE ARE TRYING TO REACH ALL KINDS OF MEDIA. THEY'VE REALLY -- I CAN'T SAY ENOUGH ABOUT THE HELP THEY HAVE GIVEN US, ESPECIALLY WITH THE WEB SITE AND THE DIFFERENT THINGS. ON THE 27th OF JULY, MAYOR BARFORD WILL BE HERE FROM TEMPLE TERRACE, AND PINELLAS COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR FRED MARQUIS HAS AGREED TO COME OVER AND SPEAK TO US. ON AUGUST 10th, SENATOR JIM HARGRETT WILL BE HERE, REPRESENTATIVE RUDY BRADLEY, AND REPRESENTATIVE LES MILLER. AUGUST 24th, JOANNA TOKLEY HAS ASKED TO COME SPEAK TO THE BOARD. AND ON JULY 6th, LAST WEEK, I MET WITH THE COMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT TO FIND OUT A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE PUBLIC HEARING PROCESS. TRYING TO ANTICIPATE SOME DATES, I DO HAVE SOME TENTATIVE DATES SET IN CASE YOU SHOULD DECIDE TO DO THIS. THE BOARD ROOMS -- AND I AM GOING TO -- I GUESS THE BOARD WILL BE ON BREAK IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, SO THIS ROOM IS A LITTLE BIT MORE AVAILABLE THAN NORMAL, BUT WHEN WE DO PUBLIC HEARINGS, WE HAVE TO BE SURE THAT WE ARE IN A PLACE WHERE THERE IS TV AND ACCESS FOR THE PUBLIC AND ALL, AND THAT WAS MY CONCERN TOO. I KNOW THE BOARDROOM HERE SEEMS TO BE THE BEST. I DIDN'T KNOW IF ANYONE ELSE HAD ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS, IF YOU WOULD GET THEM TO ME, I WILL BE GLAD TO ADD THEM TO MY LIST AND HAVE A CONTINGENCY LIST. >>JAN SMITH: BARBARA, SOMETIMES THE SCHOOL BOARD AUDITORIUM IS AVAILABLE. >>BARBARA MERRITT: OKAY. NOW, WHEN DR. MacMANUS WAS HERE SPEAKING, I WAS LISTENING TO WHAT SHE WAS SAYING. NOW, THAT SURVEY SHE DID FOR THE COUNTY WAS TWO YEARS OLD. I WOULD BE INTERESTED -- I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU FEEL, BUT MAYBE IF YOU WOULD CONSIDER THINKING ABOUT MAYBE HAVING DR. MacMANUS DOING SOME TYPE OF SURVEY FOR YOU, I THINK YOU MIGHT GET ANOTHER FEEL FOR DIFFERENT AREAS, ESPECIALLY AFTER YOU DECIDE HOW YOU WANT TO PROCEED AFTER YOU GET YOUR SURVEY THAT I DID WITH YOUR ISSUES. AND THE OTHER THING, COMMISSIONER SCOTT'S OFFICE CALLED, AND HE SAID THAT HE THANKED US FOR THE INVITATION, BUT HE IS CHOOSING NOT TO COME BEFORE THE BOARD, SO YOU'VE HEARD FROM ALL THE COMMISSIONERS -- >>JAN SMITH: CHRIS HART? >>BARBARA MERRITT: CHRIS HART HAS NOT CALLED ME BACK WITH A DATE. I'LL KEEP CALLING. >>JAN SMITH: I SPOKE TO WILL TODAY. HOPEFULLY. >>BARBARA MERRITT: COMMISSIONER HART WILL BE THE LAST COMMISSIONER LEFT TO HEAR FROM. GERALD, I DID CALL -- MR. WHITE, I DID CALL THE MAYOR'S OFFICE AGAIN, AND -- AS WITH PLANT CITY, AND THEY PROMISED TO GET BACK WITH US, BUT I KNOW THE CITY OF TAMPA IS ALSO GOING THROUGH SOME CHARTER CHANGES, TOO, SO THEY ARE BUSY OVER THERE. AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY EXCEPT I KNOW MR. BALLARD WENT TO THE -- I'M SORRY -- THE FARM BUREAU -- THE ECONOMIC -- >> ON AGRICULTURE. >>BARBARA MERRITT: AND HE REPRESENTED US THERE YESTERDAY. AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF YOU HAVE A CHANCE, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO WAIT TILL YOUR BOARD DISCUSSION, WITH THE SURVEY, IF YOU HAD ANY QUESTIONS THE WAY I TABULATED OR HOW I DID ANYTHING. >>GERALD WHITE: I WAS HOPING THE CHAIR WAS GOING TO GO OVER THE SURVEY TONIGHT. >>JAN SMITH: WE ARE GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT. I WAS HOPING TO DO THAT AT THE END OF THE MEETING TO TRY TO GET THROUGH PUBLIC COMMENT AND THE MAJOR DISCUSSIONS WE HAVE AND THEN MAYBE JUST THE LAST FIVE MINUTES TALK ABOUT THAT. >>GERALD WHITE: OKAY. >>BARBARA MERRITT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. >>JAN SMITH: OKAY. TWO PEOPLE THAT DID NOT SPEAK AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING, MARILYN SMITH AND RALPH HUGHES. IS THERE ANYONE ELSE IN THE ROOM THAT DOES WANT TO SPEAK THIS EVENING? OKAY. GRANT WALTERS. OKAY. MR. HUGHES. HI. >> THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR. RALPH HUGHES, TAMPA. WOULD THE TAXPAYERS OF OUR COUNTY BENEFIT IF OUR COUNTY GOVERNMENT INCLUDED THE OFFICE OF COUNTY INTERNAL PERFORMANCE AUDITOR APPOINTED BY AND REPORTED DIRECTLY TO THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. CONSIDER, PALM BEACH COUNTY ESTABLISHED A COUNTY AUDITOR'S OFFICE IN 1985, 16 YEARS AGO, AND THE RESULTS HAVE BEEN DRAMATIC. THAT OFFICE WAS ESTABLISHED WITH 11 EMPLOYEES AND A BUDGET OF $800,000. NOW, 16 YEARS LATER, THEY EMPLOY ONLY 12 AND HAVE A NET BUDGET OF $650,000. AND THEIR AUDITOR'S OFFICE CONDUCTS COMPLIANCE AUDITS AND PERFORMANCE AUDITS, WHILE OUR OFFICE WOULD CONDUCT PERFORMANCE AUDITS ONLY. WHAT HAS BEEN THE RESULT? WELL, FOR ONE THING, PALM BEACH COUNTY'S AD VALOREM PROPERTY TAX RATES ARE 20% BELOW OUR MILLAGE RATES, WHILE OUR SALES TAX IS 12.5% HIGHER THAN THEIR SALES TAX RATE. IN OTHER WORDS, OUR SALES TAX RATE COSTS THE RESIDENTS OF OUR COUNTY AND TOURISTS $105 MILLION PER YEAR MORE THAN IF WE CHARGED THE SAME SALES TAX RATE AS PALM BEACH COUNTY. OUR PROPERTY OWNERS WOULD ENJOY A 20% REDUCTION IN THEIR COUNTY PROPERTY TAXES OR AN ADDITIONAL -- OR AN $80 MILLION PER YEAR REDUCTION IF WE CHARGED THE SAME PROPERTY TAX RATE AS PALM BEACH COUNTY. SOME WILL SAY, BUT PALM BEACH COUNTY IS DIFFERENT. THEY HAVE MORE CITIES. THAT IS NOT A FACTOR. THE MILLAGE RATE I SPEAK TO IS A TOTAL RATE, INCLUDING THE MILLAGE RATES OF THE CITIES. THE SALES TAX RATE IS COUNTYWIDE IN BOTH COUNTIES. TO STATE OTHERWISE IS TO CONFUSE THE ISSUE. SOME WILL SAY, BUT THEY HAVE A HIGHER PRICE HOMES OR PROPERTY VALUES IN PALM BEACH COUNTY, AND IT RESULTS -- THAT RESULTS IN LOWER MILLAGE RATES. HOGWASH. WE HAVE A BRANCH OFFICE IN PALM BEACH COUNTY AND KNOW THAT AREA WELL.