Charter Review Board, 9-28-00 **NOTIFICATION: **This is not an official, verbatim transcript of the following **meeting. It should be used for informational purposes only. **This document has not been edited; therefore, there may be **additions, deletions, or words that did not translate. >>DAVID HURLEY: WELCOME TO THE SEPTEMBER 28th MEETING OF THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD. WE'RE GOING TO BEGIN WITH MR. BEDKE LEADING US IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. [PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE] >>DAVID HURLEY: WILL THE CLERK PLEASE CALL THE ROLL. [ ROLL CALL TAKEN ] >> YOU HAVE A QUORUM. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU. FOR THE RECORD, DANNY WILKES AND JAN SMITH ARE BOTH NOT HERE TONIGHT DUE TO PRIOR COMMITMENTS. WE KNEW ABOUT THAT IN ADVANCE. THE -- DID EVERYONE RECEIVE THE MINUTES FROM THE LAST MEETING? DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY COMMENTS ON THEM? A MOTION WOULD BE IN ORDER FOR APPROVAL. >> SO MOVED. >> I SECOND. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. IT'S BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED. ANY DISCUSSION? >> YES. ACTUALLY, I THINK THERE IS A CHANGE ON WHAT I BELIEVE IS ONE, TWO, THREE, ABOUT THE FOURTH PAGE. IT'S THE FIRST FULL PARAGRAPH. IT TALKS ABOUT FOR THE OCTOBER 12th, 2000 MEETING, AND IT TALKS ABOUT A SERIES OF MOTIONS THAT WERE MADE BY MR. LaBOUR AND SECONDED BY ME. AND AT ONE POINT IT SAYS THE MOTION CARRIED 13 TO ZERO. THEN IT READS MR. LaBOUR MOVED TO PUT ON THE OCTOBER 12th, 2000 CRB AGENDA A STRAW VOTE ON REAL TERM LIMITS DEFINED AS A MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF YEARS IN WHICH A PERSON COULD SERVE IN A SEAT ON THE B.O.C.C. WITHOUT JUMPING TO ANOTHER SEAT, AND THAT'S, I THINK, NOT THE INTENT. THE INTENT IS A -- >> THAT WAS MY MOTION. >>MIKE BEDKE: WITHOUT JUMPING -- >>STEVE LaBOUR: YES. >>MIKE BEDKE: OKAY. BECAUSE I THOUGHT THE INTENT OF REAL TERM LIMITS WAS X NUMBER OF CONSECUTIVE YEARS ON THE BOARD, PERIOD, NOT BEFORE JUMPING TO ANOTHER SEAT. SO I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY WHAT -- WHAT THE INTENT WAS BECAUSE IF -- IF THESE MINUTES ARE CORRECT, THEN THAT'S -- THAT'S FINE, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I UNDERSTOOD. >>DAVID HURLEY: DENISE. >>DENISE LASHER: IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOUR -- YOUR POINT IS THAT IF SOMEONE WERE TO SERVE FOUR YEARS AS, SAY, A SINGLE MEMBER -- FROM A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT, AND THEN IF THEY CHOSE TO RUN FOR COUNTYWIDE, THAT WOULDN'T BE POSSIBLE BASED ON THAT WORDING BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE GOING FROM ONE SEAT TO ANOTHER. IS THAT CORRECT? IS THAT THE POINT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE? >>MIKE BEDKE: NO. THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT MY INTENT, AT LEAST, AND PERHAPS I VOTED IN FAVOR OF SOMETHING THAT I WAS UNCLEAR ABOUT. MY INTENT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT REAL TERM LIMITS IS IF YOU SERVE OUT A TERM IN A PARTICULAR SEAT, TODAY YOU CAN RUN IN ANOTHER SEAT. YOU COULD GO FROM DISTRICT 1 TO DISTRICT 2 TO DISTRICT 3 TO DISTRICT 4 TO AT LARGE BACK TO DISTRICT 1, AND YOU COULD BE IN AN OFFICE ON THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. AND WHAT I HAVE INTENDED WHEN I'VE TALKED ABOUT REAL TERM LIMITS IS YOU HAVE X NUMBER OF YEARS, SAY EIGHT YEARS, TO SERVE -- EIGHT CONSECUTIVE YEARS OF SERVICE ON THE BOARD BEFORE YOU HAVE TO GO SIT OUT FOR A WHILE. >>STEVE LaBOUR: THAT WAS THE INTENT OF MY MOTION. I DON'T -- I GUESS READING THE VERBIAGE, I BELIEVE IT SAYS THAT, BUT -- AND THAT WAS MY INTENT. >>MIKE BEDKE: OKAY. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE OF THE HYMNAL. WE CAN ARGUE WHETHER THE SEMANTICS ARE CORRECT, BUT -- >> I AM FINE WITH THAT. I AGREE THAT THERE SHOULD BE A CERTAIN, MAYBE TWO YEARS THAT A PERSON COULD NOT RUN FOR ANOTHER SEAT, BUT THIS CONTINUAL -- >>DAVID HURLEY: MS. WILLIAMS. >>DEE WILLIAMS: ARE WE DECIDING THIS OR JUST TRYING TO CHANGE THE MINUTES. >>DAVID HURLEY: TRYING TO DECIDE WHAT THE MINUTES SHOULD SAY. >>DEE WILLIAMS: I DON'T HAVE A HARD COPY. >> THEY WERE E-MAILED TO US, I BELIEVE. >> IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. I JUST -- WHEN I READ IT, I THOUGHT MAYBE WE SHOULD CLARIFY IT. I AM NOT TRYING TO WORDSMITH IT, BUT IT SAYS DEFINED AS A MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF YEARS IN WHICH A PERSON COULD SERVE IN A SEAT ON THE B.O.C.C. -- AND HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART -- WITHOUT JUMPING TO ANOTHER SEAT, IMPLYING TO ME THAT YOU COULD JUMP TO ANOTHER SEAT AND REMAIN ON THE BOARD, AND I -- THAT IS NOT WHAT I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, AND I THINK WE ALL NOW AGREE WHETHER THIS REFLECTS THE CONCEPT OR NOT, WE ALL ARE IN AGREEMENT, AT LEAST AS TO WHAT IT IS WE'RE DISCUSSING. SO I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE, WHICH I BELIEVE WE ARE. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. OPPOSED, SAME SIGN. MINUTES ARE ACCEPTED. BARBARA, IS THERE A LIST OF PEOPLE FOR PUBLIC COMMENT? SHE IS ON HER WAY TO GET THAT AT THIS TIME. >>GERALD WHITE: ARE WE CAUGHT UP ON ALL THE MINUTES NOW, MR. CHAIRMAN? >>DAVID HURLEY: I HOPE SO. >>GERALD WHITE: I THOUGHT THERE WAS ONE THAT WE DIDN'T APPROVE LAST MEETING. HAVE WE APPROVED THE LAST -- >> I DON'T KNOW. I HAVEN'T BEEN HERE -- [ INAUDIBLE ] >> [ INAUDIBLE ] >>DAVID HURLEY: I THOUGHT IT WAS TWO MEETINGS AGO THAT WE WERE BEHIND. WE CAUGHT UP. BUT I'M NOT CERTAIN. >>GERALD WHITE: I BELIEVE IT WAS THE 24th THAT WE DID NOT APPROVE. I THINK WE HAD RECEIVED THEM, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE AT THAT TIME WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE READ THEM, AND I THINK THE CHAIR SAID SHE WAS GOING TO TAKE THEM UP AT THIS MEETING. I MAKE A MOTION THAT WE APPROVE THOSE MINUTES. >>DAVID HURLEY: WHETHER WE APPROVED THEM OR NOT. ALL RIGHT. >> WHETHER WE REMEMBER IT OR NOT. I SECOND THE MOTION. >>DAVID HURLEY: BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED THAT WE APPROVE THE PREVIOUS MEETING'S MINUTES. ANY DISCUSSION? ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. OPPOSED, SAME SIGN. MOTION CARRIES. OKAY. THE PUBLIC COMMENT. OUR FIRST SPEAKER IS BART SIEGEL. >> GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS BART SIEGEL. I'M A CANDIDATE FOR CLERK OF THE CIRCUIT COURT, AND I HAPPEN TO AGREE VERY MUCH WITH MR. BEDKE. I THINK THAT THE WHOLE INTENTIONS OF TERM LIMITS IS ALONG WITH WHAT SOME OF OUR FOREFATHERS EXPECTED OF US IS TO SERVE AND GO HOME. THAT WOULD BE THE OPTIMAL SOLUTION, BUT GIVEN CERTAIN PEOPLE ARE TAKING -- MAKING POLITICS A CAREER, I GUESS, TRYING TO GET THEM SHOE-HORNED OUT OF THEIR OFFICE BECAUSE THE INCUMBENT'S ADVANTAGE IS SO DRAMATIC THAT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO CHALLENGE AN INCUMBENT WITH ANY SUCCESS THAT THE BEST THING WOULD BE TO MAKE THEM LEAVE OFFICE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME BEFORE THEY'RE ALLOWED TO RUN BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE NAME RECOGNITION, YOU ARE ABLE TO USE ALL THE GOVERNMENT RESOURCES TO BOLSTER YOUR POSITION, AND THEREFORE, IT'S A DRAMATIC ADVANTAGE OVER SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO CHALLENGE FROM MERELY THE PUBLIC WHO CAN'T PROVIDE ANY KIND OF ASSISTANCE TO SUPPORTERS, IF THAT'S A NICE WAY TO PUT IT. THE OTHER THING THAT -- I HAVEN'T RECEIVED THE MINUTES OR ANY PAPER FROM THE LAST MEETING, SO I DON'T KNOW ACTUALLY WHAT THE CONCLUSIONS WERE, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE CONSIDERING APPOINTED OFFICIALS HAVING TERM LIMITS AS WELL AS ALL ELECTED OFFICERS, AND I JUST WANTED TO INPUT THAT. THESE PEOPLE CREATE SINECURES OF POWER, AND THEY'RE UNDERNEATH THE RADAR OF THE PUBLIC, AND THE BEST WAY TO TRY TO -- IS TO INCLUDE TERM LIMITS. ALSO, WHEN I WAS LISTENING TO THE COUNTY ATTORNEY, I DON'T THINK SHE APPRECIATED WHAT I MEANT BY PROHIBITION ON ACCEPTING CONTRIBUTIONS FROM SUBORDINATES. SURE, THERE ARE LOTS OF LAWS. THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF LAWS AS FAR AS PREVENTING SEXUAL HARASSMENT, BUT AS WE ALL KNOW, ANYONE WHO IS A VICTIM, TO TRY TO ACTUALLY DEFEND THEMSELVES AFTER BEING SUBJECT TO HARASSMENT, OR IN THIS CASE, IF YOU'RE BEING PRESSURED TO WORK ON CAMPAIGNS OR ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE TO CAMPAIGNS, IT'S -- IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO MAKE A CASE. IT'S EXTREMELY HUMILIATING, AND YOUR CHANCES OF PREVAILING ARE VERY, VERY SMALL. SO IN MY OPINION, THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH THE SUBJECT IS JUST TO PROHIBIT IT, AND YOU CAN'T PROHIBIT THE PERSON FROM GIVING IT, BUT YOU CAN PROHIBIT THE PERSON FROM ACCEPTING IT. SO I THINK ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND PROBABLY IT WOULD EVEN BE BETTER IF THE PERSON RUNNING FOR THAT OFFICE WHO MAY BE POSSIBLY THAT PERSON'S SUPERVISOR OR HAVE CONTROL OVER THEIR FUTURE, THEY WOULD BE PROHIBITED FROM ACCEPTING ANY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE PEOPLE WHO MAY POSSIBLY WORK UNDER THEM. THE LAST ISSUE THAT I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS IS THE INITIATIVE OF CREATING THE INTERNAL PERFORMANCE AUDITOR. ONCE AGAIN, I THINK IT'S A SITUATION RIGHT NOW THAT'S TEMPORARY. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LACK CONFIDENCE IN THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR'S ABILITY TO OVERSEE PERFORMANCE AUDITS FOR THE BOARD, AND ALSO, THEY LACK CONFIDENCE IN THE CLERK OF THE COURT TO OVERSEE PERFORMANCE AUDITS FOR THE BOARD, AND I JUST THINK THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT A LONG-TERM SOLUTION TO A SHORT-TERM PROBLEM. WHAT I'D LIKE TO SUGGEST THAT MAY BE MORE PALATABLE WOULD BE TO BREAK THE CLERK'S OFFICE IN TWO, AS THEY HAVE IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS SUCH AS ORANGE COUNTY, WHERE YOU HAVE A SEPARATE COMPTROLLER'S OFFICE AND A SEPARATE CLERK'S OFFICE. THAT WAY YOU GET -- OR AT LEAST THE PEOPLE GET TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE WITH MORE SPECIFIC EXPERTISE, SUCH AS IN ORANGE COUNTY, THEY HAVE A COMPTROLLER WHO IS A CPA, AND THAT COMPTROLLER IS PROBABLY MUCH MORE COMPETENT AS FAR AS THOSE DUTIES ARE CONCERNED, AND ALSO I WOULD ASSUME THAT THE CLERK OF THE COURT IS MUCH MORE COMPETENT IN THOSE DUTIES BECAUSE IT IS QUITE A LARGE JOB TRYING TO MAINTAIN ALL THE RECORDS OF THE COURT, AS WELL AS MAINTAIN ALL THE RECORDS -- FINANCIAL RECORDS OF THE COUNTY. SO I -- YOU KNOW, AND THE END OF MY STATEMENT, I THINK MAYBE MORE PALATABLE THAN CREATING A NEW BUREAUCRATIC NIGHTMARE CALLED THE INTERNAL AUDITOR, WE CREATE A SEPARATE POSITION CALLED THE COMPTROLLER AND KEEP SEPARATE MAINTAINING THE RECORDS OF THE COURT AND THE FINANCIAL RECORDS OF THE COUNTY. >>DAVID HURLEY: MS. WEST, ARE YOU KEEPING A TIMER? YOU ARE. OKAY. NEXT SPEAKER IS MARK SHONBRUN. >> I HAVE BEEN ENJOYING -- MARK SHONBRUN. I HAVE BEEN APATHETIC ABOUT OUR GOVERNMENT FOR MANY YEARS, BUT I SEE A CHANGE. I SEE MORE PEOPLE TAKING AN INTEREST. I HEARD SOME OF THE THINGS THAT BART SIEGEL SAID LAST WEEK, AND TODAY, AND I -- I COULDN'T SAY THEM BETTER MYSELF. YOUR NAME IS RALPH HUGHES, IS IT? I HEARD SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID LAST WEEK. I WAS STIRRED. I DON'T THINK I COULD ADD ANYTHING TO THEM EXCEPT MY APPROVAL AND MY GLADNESS AT SEEING SOME POSITIVE CHANGE IN OUR GOVERNMENT. THANK YOU. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU. NEIL COSENTINO. >> GOOD EVENING. NEIL COSENTINO. I AM THE PRESIDENT OF -- I LIVE AT 708 SOUTH DAVIS BOULEVARD, TAMPA. I AM THE PRESIDENT OF BAY WORLD PUBLIC TRUST, A PUBLIC INTEREST THINK TANK LOCATED IN FLORIDA, AND I AM HERE TO PRESENT A SERIES -- WE'LL START WITH TWO THIS EVENING -- OF CHARTER CHANGES THAT WE THINK ARE NEEDED, AND THEY HARKEN BACK TO THE C.I.T. TAX. WE HAD A SITUATION IN THE C.I.T. TAX, WHICH I THINK -- AND I'LL READ IT FROM MY NOTES. IT SAYS THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR AND/OR MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, UNDER THE PRESENT CHARTER, HAVE -- CAN HAVE AN UNFAIR, UNDUE, AND UNDEMOCRATIC INFLUENCE ON BALLOT REFERENDUMS. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THESE CHARTER CHANGES WILL GO INTO A REFERENDUM, AND WHEN YOU GET GOVERNMENT LOBBYING, USING PUBLIC MONEY TO LOBBY IN FAVOR OF ONE REFERENDUM OVER ANOTHER OR ONE POSITION IN A REFERENDUM OVER ANOTHER, AS WAS THE CASE IN THE C.I.T. TAX, YOU CAN SEE, THAT JUST DOESN'T -- JUST DOESN'T FLOW. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. SO THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT THAT -- AND I AM NOT SAYING ALL THE COMMISSIONERS DID IT, BUT I'M SAYING IT HAPPENED. AND THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT THAT IS TO PUT IN THE CHARTER A STATEMENT -- THAT'S NOT TO SAY GOVERNMENT CAN'T LOBBY, BUT IN THE CASE OF SOMETHING THAT THE PEOPLE ARE VOTING ON, THEN THE OPPOSITION REQUIRES AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF RESOURCES AND TIME. AND SO WE URGE YOU TO PUT IN THE CHARTER THAT WE'RE NOT SAYING GOVERNMENT CAN'T LOBBY FOR SOMETHING THAT THEY THINK IS GOOD, AND IF THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO PUT IT ON THE REFERENDUM, THEN I THINK THEY SHOULD, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY SHOULD USE PUBLIC MONEY TO -- AND RESOURCES AND TIME, AS THEY DID IN THE C.I.T. TAX -- TO ACTUALLY LOBBY SOMETHING THAT'S ON THERE. THEY SHOULD GIVE EQUAL AMOUNT OF TIME TO THE OPPOSITION, WHICH WAS NOT THE CASE. SO THIS WAS WHAT WE CONSIDER CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF AN UNDEMOCRATIC SITUATION FORCED ON THE PUBLIC BY GOVERNMENT, AND WE SHOULD STOP THAT. THE OTHER THING THAT WAS EGREGIOUS, WE FEEL, WAS THAT THE BUNDLING OF TWO ISSUES, AND WE WOULD HOPE THE CHARTER WOULD REFLECT THAT. NOW, YOU GO DOWN THE PATH ON VERY SMALL STEPS, BUT WHEN YOU COME OUT AT THE END, IN THIS CASE, GOVERNMENT LOBBYING FOR A REFERENDUM USING PUBLIC MONEY, PUBLIC TIME. WE HAD OTHER COMMISSIONERS THAT WERE LOBBYING FOR CERTAIN THINGS THAT WERE GOING TO GO UP BEFORE THE PUBLIC FOR A VOTE, AND THAT JUST CAN'T HAPPEN ANYMORE, AND THE WAY TO PREVENT THAT IS TO PUT IT IN THE CHARTER. IN THE CASE, IT WAS SO OBVIOUS THAT THERE WERE TWO SEPARATE ISSUES, HOW WE SHOULD FUND OUR COMMUNITY AS FAR AS THE C.I.T. TAX, COMMUNITY INVESTMENT TAX, AND HOW WE SHOULD FUND A FOOTBALL STADIUM, AND THAT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. AND SO IN THE CHARTER, WE WOULD HOPE THAT SOME CHECKS AND BALANCES ARE PLACED IN THE CHARTER SO THERE WILL NEVER BE A BUNDLING AGAIN. NOW, IF THE COUNTY COMMISSION WANTS TO VOTE ON IT, SAYING THAT THIS IS NOT A BUNDLE SITUATION OR A BUNDLED REFERENDUM, THEN I THINK THAT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT, BUT TO HAVE -- WHEN SOMEONE BRINGS UP THE ISSUE SAYING IF THE PUBLIC SAYS THIS IS A BUNDLE REFERENDUM AND WE DON'T WANT THAT, THEN I THINK IT'S INCUMBENT AND SHOULD BE IN THE CHARTER THAT THE COMMISSIONERS HAVE TO VOTE TO DETERMINE THAT BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE THEY VOTED ON THAT. I'LL HAVE TO SAY THAT. THOSE ARE TWO ISSUES, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. WE HOPE THE CHARTER -- THE NEW CHARTER WILL REFLECT THAT AS CHECKS AND BALANCES. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU, MR. COSENTINO. FRANCIS CAPE. >> GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS FRANCIS CAPE. I LIVE AT 3404 SOUTH BEACH DRIVE IN TAMPA, FLORIDA. I HAVE A SUBJECT HERE, LAND AND PROPERTY TRANSACTION BETWEEN PUBLICLY OWNED AND ENTITIES IN BETWEEN ALL GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. LAND IS OWNED BY THE PUBLIC, SOLD TO THE PUBLIC FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PUBLIC. THE PROPOSED CHARTER CHANGE MUST PREVENT THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, WHICH IT CAN LEGALLY DO NOW, FROM ENTERING INTO A CONTRACT WITH ANOTHER PUBLIC ENTITY THAT PAYS FEES, COMMISSIONS, IN A PUBLIC-TO-PUBLIC LAND OR PROPERTY TRANSFER. WE SUGGEST THAT IF THE LOAN OR MORTGAGE PAYMENT ARE MADE THAT THE PUBLIC ENTITY THAT OWNS OR SELLS THE LAND OR PROPERTY, IN THIS CASE, HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, TO ANOTHER PUBLIC ENTITY, IT WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE INTEREST OR RECEIVE THE INTEREST ON THE PUBLIC MORTGAGE, AND IN NO CASE WOULD PRIVATE PAY THE INTEREST OR SAVE THE INTEREST ON THE PUBLIC MORTGAGE. IN NO CASE WOULD PRIVATE OR PUBLIC COMMERCIAL BANKS, INVESTMENT COMPANIES, TITLE INSURANCE COMPANIES AND/OR BOND SALES, LAW FIRMS, AND OTHER COMPANIES RECEIVE COMPENSATION FROM A PUBLIC-TO-PUBLIC TRANSFER OF REAL PROPERTY. THE ONLY REAL BENEFIT FROM THIS WOULD BE THE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, AND IT SHOULD BE THE PUBLIC. THE OBJECT IN THIS -- THE OBJECT IN THIS CHARTER CHANGE OR AMENDMENT IS TO PREVENT THE UNNECESSARY COST WHEN LAND OR PROPERTY IS PURCHASED BY THE PUBLIC FROM THE PUBLIC FOR THE PROPERTY. IN SIMPLE TERMS, WHEN PUBLIC BUYS AND SELLS TO ITSELF WHAT IT ALREADY OWNS, THERE MUST BE SAFEGUARDS IN THE CHARTER TO PREVENT UNNECESSARY EXPENSE OR WHAT IS CALLED CHUMMING. I THINK YOU KNOW WHAT -- DEALING WITHIN GOVERNMENT WITH OR WITHOUT THE HELP OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND THE APPOINTED MEMBERS OF AN AUTHORITY OR COMMITTEE. WE HAVE A STRANGE AND UNSUPPORTABLE SITUATION IN THE PUBLIC BEING TITLE INSURANCE ON PROPERTY THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN OWNED BY THE PUBLIC. THIS CHARTER AMENDMENT WOULD PUT AN END TO THESE TYPE OF PRIVATE COMPANIES GAINING FROM THESE PUBLIC TRANSACTIONS. SUCH A TRANSACTION AMOUNTS TO NO LESS THAN THE GOVERNMENT ADDING TO THE PUBLIC DEBT AND TAX BURDEN BY BORROWING MONEY TO PURCHASE WHAT THE PUBLIC ALREADY OWNS, HAVING THE PUBLIC PAY FOR THE TITLE INSURANCE TO INSURE ITSELF AGAINST ITSELF. AND THE BACKGROUND AND THE PROBLEM STATEMENT. THE PROCEDURE ON THIS LAND SALES AND LAND TRANSACTIONS FROM -- AS MENTIONED ABOVE HAS RECENTLY OCCURRED IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. ONE EXAMPLE IS THE $20 MILLION LAND SALE BETWEEN TWO HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY AUTHORITIES. THIS TRANSACTION RESULTED IN THE PUBLIC BUYING FROM ITSELF $20 MILLION OF PUBLICLY OWNED PROPERTY, AND AT THE SAME TIME, PAYING INTEREST FEES, PROFESSIONAL SERVICE FEES, LAWYER FEES, AND YES, EVEN TITLE INSURANCE. ANY QUESTIONS? THANK YOU. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: YES. WERE YOU REFERRING TO THE AIRPORT AUTHORITIES? >> ABSOLUTELY. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: RECENT PURCHASE FOR THE -- OKAY. THANK YOU. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. RON WOLFE. THERE HE IS. >> GOOD EVENING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. MY NAME IS RON WOLFE. 1414 DEIDRE DRIVE IN RUSKIN. I HAVE APPEARED BEFORE THE BOARD ON TWO PREVIOUS OCCASIONS, FIRST ON AUGUST 24th, WHERE THE MAIN TOPIC WAS THE INTERNAL PERFORMANCE AUDITOR. I STATED THAT I WAS NOT IN FAVOR OF AN INTERNAL PERFORMANCE AUDITOR AS IT WAS DEFINED. OFFERED IN PLACE A CONCEPT OF AN INTERNAL POLICY ANALYST WHICH MIGHT BE CONSIDERED AS AN IMPORTANT TOOL FOR OUR B.O.C.C. AND FOLLOWED UP WITH A THREE-PAGE LETTER. I HOPE YOU'VE ALL HAD THE BENEFIT OF REVIEWING THAT. THE NEXT APPEARANCE WAS ON SEPTEMBER 14th, THE MAIN TOPIC BEING COUNTY GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE. I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING AT THAT MEETING THAT CHAIRPERSON JAN SMITH MADE THE DECISION TO CONDUCT A STRAW POLL AMONG THE -- THOSE IN ATTENDANCE, AND IT REVEALED THAT 9 OF THE 13 OF YOU IN ATTENDANCE SUGGESTED THE NEED FOR A NEW COUNTY GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE. THAT WAS ENCOURAGING TO ME. OF COURSE, THE REMAINING QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT SHOULD WE PUT IN PLACE? I AM APPEARING THIS EVENING TO DISCUSS ONCE AGAIN FAIR GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATION AND HOW THIS POPULAR NOTION APPLIES TO OUR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE. AS I STATED PREVIOUSLY, MOST PERSONS I KNOW AGREE THAT THE RIGHT OF DECISION SHOULD BELONG TO THE MAJORITY, BUT THE RIGHT OF REPRESENTATION TO ALL. AND SOME PERSONS ARE MORE OUTSPOKEN ON THIS TOPIC THAN OTHERS. LAST TIME I VISITED, I SHARED WITH YOU INASMUCH AS I WRITE A WEEKLY COLUMN IN THE OBSERVER NEWS TITLED "THE VOICE OF RUSKIN," THAT OVER THE PAST YEAR I RECEIVED INPUT FROM OVER A HUNDRED PERSONS DECLARING DISSATISFACTION WITH THE PRESENT ALIGNMENT OF GOVERNMENT IN DISTRICT 4, WHERE RUSKIN LIES. SINCE THAT TIME, I SAW FIT TO PREPARE FOR THIS TO CONDUCT ANOTHER SURVEY, SO I STOOD OUTSIDE OUR RUSKIN POST OFFICE AND KASH N' KARRY SUPERMARKET AND TALKED TO 65 PERSONS IN PREPARATION FOR MEETING -- APPEARING HERE THIS EVENING. ONE OF THE QUESTIONS IS TO DETERMINE THEIR SATISFACTION WITH THE CURRENT COUNTY REPRESENTATION IN DISTRICT 4. NOW, OVERWHELMINGLY, THOSE I SPOKE TO DECLARED A HIGH LEVEL OF DISSATISFACTION. WHEN I FOLLOWED UP AND ASKED THEM THEIR VIEW OF THE PRESENT COUNTY GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE, UNFORTUNATELY, VERY FEW OF THEM EVEN WERE FAMILIAR WITH THE COUNTY STRUCTURE. AND THEN THE LAST INQUIRY WAS THEIR SUGGESTIONS FOR A NEW B.O.C.C. STRUCTURE, THEY WEREN'T REALLY QUALIFIED OR PREPARED TO ADVANCE THEIR FEELINGS ON THAT. BUT I WANT TO, ONCE AGAIN THIS EVENING, OFFER THE FOLLOWING FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION AS YOU PURSUE THE MATTER OF STRUCTURE OF COUNTY GOVERNMENT. ONE, MY SUGGESTION IS THAT WE KEEP THE SAME NUMBER OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, WHICH IS SEVEN, TO AVOID ANY IMPACT ON THE COUNTY BUDGET. TWO, WE TAKE THE COUNTY POPULATION OF ONE MILLION CITIZENS AND CREATE SEVEN SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, EACH REPRESENTING 150,000 PEOPLE. THREE, WE MAKE IT MANDATORY FOR EACH COMMISSIONER TO RESIDE WITHIN THE DISTRICT BEING REPRESENTED. FOUR, WE ELIMINATE THE THREE AT-LARGE DISTRICTS. LAST BUT NOT LEAST, WE FOLLOW THROUGH AND PLACE THIS MATTER BEFORE THE CITIZENS OF HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY IN THE FORM OF A REFERENDUM SO THE VOICES OF BOTH TAMPA AND UNINCORPORATED HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY CAN BE HEARD. ANY QUESTIONS? COMMENTS? >>DAVID HURLEY: I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE ONE COMMENT. THERE WAS AN ARTICLE PASSED OUT LAST MONTH IN THE THING WITH REGARD TO THE FAIR. I FORGET WHAT THE NAME -- THE ACRONYM STANDS FOR. BUT IT MENTIONED -- HAD SOME APPOINTMENTS WRONG IN THERE WITH REGARD TO THE REPRESENTATION FROM DISTRICT 4 ON THIS BOARD. THERE ARE ACTUALLY FOUR MEMBERS ON THIS BOARD THAT ARE FROM DISTRICT 4, WHICH IS WHERE YOU LIVE. I THINK THE ARTICLE SAID MS. WALDRON WAS APPOINTED BY COMMISSIONER STORMS, AND SHE WAS ACTUALLY APPOINTED BY COMMISSIONER HART. >> I SEE. >>DAVID HURLEY: AND -- COMMISSIONER FRANK ALSO APPOINTED SOMEONE FROM DISTRICT 4. IT ESCAPES ME RIGHT NOW. IT WAS MR. BALLARD. AND HE IS FROM PLANT CITY, I BELIEVE. SO THAT GIVES US -- YOU DO HAVE FOUR REPRESENTATIVES FROM DISTRICT 4, SO YOU DIDN'T DO TOO BAD. >> I AM GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT TO MY ATTENTION. WE'LL HAVE TO REVISIT THAT SUBJECT, DO A LITTLE TWEAKING, AND COME BACK WITH MORE ACCURATE INFORMATION. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. WOLFE. BILL PINROSE. >> GOOD EVENING. I'M BILL PINROSE FROM 3909 -- PLANT CITY, FLORIDA. I MOVED DOWN HERE 27 YEARS AGO. AT THAT TIME, THE CLERK OF THE COURT COULD HANDLE BOTH THE FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES AND THE CLERK OF THE COURT STUFF. 27 YEARS LATER, WE ARE NOW 14th LARGEST METROPOLITAN -- THE 14th LARGEST MARKET IN THE COUNTRY, AND THE CLERK CAN'T HANDLE IT ANYMORE, FOLKS. THE VERY FACT YOU HAVE THIS PROPOSAL FOR AN INTERNAL AUDITOR, YOU ARE ADMITTING THAT THE CLERK OF THE COURT CAN'T DO HIS JOB. YOU ARE ALSO ADMITTING THAT THE JOB IS TOO BIG. SO I AM PROPOSING THAT WE DIVIDE THIS OFFICE INTO TWO PARTS. ONE, ALL THE FINANCIAL STUFF BEING TOSSED INTO A DEPARTMENT THAT IS BEING HELD BY A TRAINED FINANCIAL OFFICER, AND THE OTHER, THE REGULAR CLERK OF THE COURT STUFF LIKE THE CLERK IS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING. I FURTHER PROPOSE THAT WE ALSO HAVE AN EIGHT-YEAR TERM LIMIT. THINGS ARE CHANGING TOO FAST FOR ANY ONE PERSON TO BE IN THE JOB FOR THAT LENGTH OF TIME. I PROPOSE WE PUT IT ON THE BALLOT SO THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTY CAN VOTE ON IT IN THE FALL. THANK YOU. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU, MR. PINROSE. KEVIN WRIGHT. >> MY NAME IS KEVIN WRIGHT, AND I OWN A SMALL BUSINESS HERE IN THE COUNTY, AND ALSO OWN DIFFERENT PROPERTIES. AND I WAS JUST HERE TO SPEAK IN AGREEMENT WITH SOME OF THE PROPOSALS TO LIMIT THE TERMS OF COUNTY OFFICIALS. I THINK THAT THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTY HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS THAT BUREAUCRACY HAS BECOME ENTRENCHED AT THE COURTHOUSE, AND A CERTAIN LEVEL OF CORRUPTION BEGINS TO DEVELOP. MY MOTHER USED TO WORK WITH THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT, AND SHE WAS ALWAYS COMING HOME LITERALLY IN TEARS BECAUSE OF THE PRESSURE THAT WAS BEING PUT ON HER BY HER SUPERIORS THERE AT THE ORGANIZATION TO DO THIS OR THAT, AND IT MOSTLY INVOLVED CONTRIBUTIONS TO ELECTED OFFICIALS. AND I JUST THINK THIS IS WRONG. I ALSO THINK THAT THE ADMINISTRATORS AND THE THIRD ESTATE, IF YOU WILL, OF THE COUNTY BUREAUCRACY -- BUREAUCRATS WHO GET INTO POSITIONS AND STAY THERE WHO AREN'T ELECTED, THEY SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO A TERM LIMIT OF SOME SORT SO THAT THE CITIZENS FEEL THAT THEY HAVE SOME SORT OF INPUT INTO THE PROCESS. AND I'D ALSO ENCOURAGE YOU FOLKS TO LOOK AT THE POSSIBILITY OF PROPERTY TAX RELIEF IN THE FORM THAT THERE SHOULD BE A CAP PLACED ON THE AMOUNT THAT A PROPERTY CAN BE TAXED, AND IT SHOULD TIE INTO WHAT THE DOMESTIC PRODUCT -- THE GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT OF THIS COUNTY IS ON A YEAR-TO-YEAR BASIS. IF THERE IS NO CAP, THEN WE END UP WORKING LONGER AND LONGER AND LONGER FOR TAX FREEDOM DAY, AS I'M SURE MANY OF YOU ARE AWARE, OVER THE YEARS, TAX FREEDOM DAY STARTED OFF IN -- I DON'T KNOW -- APRIL -- AND THEN IT WENT TO MAY, AND I THINK WE'RE UP TO JUNE NOW AS TO HOW LONG WE HAVE TO WORK IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY SUPPORT ALL THE DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT ENTITIES WHICH WE ARE SUBJECTED TO. AND AT A CERTAIN POINT, YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PRIORITIZE WHAT THEY DO, AND THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LIMIT THEIR BUDGET BASED UPON WHAT THE PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY OF THE PEOPLE THEY SERVE IS. AND IF WE COULD WRITE THAT INTO OUR CHARTER, I THINK THAT WOULD BE A GREAT LOUD-AND-CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE OF HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY THAT THIS IS A LINE THAT WE WON'T CROSS. I'D ALSO LIKE TO SPEAK IN FAVOR OF THE OBJECTION TO THE POSITION OF INTERNAL PERFORMANCE AUDITOR. I THINK THAT THAT IS A DUTY WHICH COULD BE HANDLED BY THE CLERK OF THE CIRCUIT COURT IN HIS REGULAR CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICE, AND I JUST, AGAIN, WANT TO REITERATE THAT THIS IDEA THAT CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS CAN BE ALLOWED TO HAVE THEIR SUBORDINATES SUBMIT CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS FOR THEIR ELECTIONS, I JUST REALLY THINK THAT THAT'S WRONG, AND IT CREATES A TREMENDOUS CONFLICT OF INTEREST. IF THEY WANT TO CONTRIBUTE IN THE FORM OF SERVICE TO THEIR PARTY OR IN GENERAL FUNDS, SOFT MONEY TYPE FUNDS, IF YOU WILL, TO THE PARTY IN GENERAL, I THINK THAT'S ONE THING, BUT TO SPECIFICALLY PARTICIPATE IN THE CAMPAIGNS OF THEIR SUPERIORS IS WRONG. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR ME? >>DAVID HURLEY: MS. TUTTLE. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: PERHAPS SOMEONE ON THE BOARD WHO IS BETTER VERSED IN OUR CONSTITUTION -- OUR ATTORNEYS ARE HERE -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PROPERTY APPRAISER APPRAISES, AND HE HAS TO, BY STATE LAW, THE -- I AM SORRY. THE TAX COLLECTOR CAN ONLY COLLECT ON WHAT THE PROPERTY APPRAISER HAS APPRAISED THE VALUE OF YOUR HOME, SO TO PUT A CAP ON THERE, I AM NOT SURE -- I AM NOT SURE THAT -- >> IT WOULD BE A CAP FOR THE COUNTY BUDGET, NOT FOR THE ACTUAL APPRAISAL OF THE PROPERTY. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: OKAY. >> BUT THE COUNTY BUDGET HAS TO BE TIED IN A ONE-TO-ONE FASHION TO WHAT THE PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY OF THIS COUNTY IS, OTHERWISE IT'S CARTE BLANCHE. THERE ARE SITUATIONS THAT WE'LL FIND OURSELVES FROM TIME TO TIME OF ECONOMIC DISTRESS, BUT THOSE NEED TO BE ADJUSTED ON A YEAR-TO-YEAR BASIS ACCORDING TO WHAT THE PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY OF THIS COUNTY IS. FUNDAMENTALLY, I'M NOT REALLY THAT SOLD ON THE IDEA OF PROPERTY TAXES TO START OFF WITH BECAUSE HOW MANY TIMES YEAR TO YEAR DO PEOPLE LOSE THEIR PROPERTIES BECAUSE OF THEIR INABILITY TO PAY THESE TAXES? AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST VERY, VERY SAD WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE LOSING THEIR PROPERTIES FOR THIS REASON. YOU KNOW, THE HARDSHIP THAT THIS CREATES FOR OUR ELDERLY, SENIOR CITIZENS, AND ALSO FOR THE DISABLED, IT'S JUST -- IT'S UNCONSCIONABLE, BUT IT HAPPENS DAY IN AND DAY OUT. PEOPLE SUFFER MENTAL ILLNESSES, AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENTS, FAMILY TRAGEDIES OF ONE SORT OR ANOTHER, AND THE PROPERTY TAXES THAT YOU HAVE TO PAY RESULTS IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU DON'T OWN YOUR PROPERTY ANYMORE. YOU ARE, IN EFFECT, LEASING IT FROM THE GOVERNMENT. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. THANK YOU. IS THERE -- THE LAST NAME I HAD ON THE LIST. WAS THERE ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTED TO SPEAK TO THE BOARD AT THIS TIME. MR. HUGHES? >> THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. RALPH HUGHES, TAMPA. I WANT TO STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU CONSIDER ARRIVING AT A DECISION ON THE ELECTED COUNTY MAYOR, ADMINISTRATOR, CHAIRMAN, WHATEVER TITLE YOU DECIDE ON. CONCENTRATE ON THAT. LET'S GET THAT BEHIND US BEFORE WE MOVE INTO ANY OTHER ISSUES TO BE CONSIDERED. WE HAVE BEEN MEETING NOW FOR SEVEN MONTHS. WE HAVE NINE MORE MEETINGS LEFT. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY CHANCE AT ALL THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DECIDE THIS ISSUE TONIGHT. BUT I WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE WISE IF YOU WOULD AT LEAST CONSIDER TONIGHT SETTING A DATE WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO VOTE ON THIS ISSUE, AND CONCENTRATE ON THIS ISSUE TONIGHT AND AS MANY MEETINGS AS YOU THINK IS NECESSARY, AND LET'S GET THAT RESOLVED. TONIGHT WE HEARD PEOPLE COME FORWARD WITH RECOMMENDATIONS WE'VE NEVER HEARD BEFORE. WE HAVE RECOMMENDATIONS WE'VE TOUCHED ON BEFORE SUCH AS THE QUALIFICATIONS OF THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR WE HAVE YET TO DEAL WITH. THE 3% ANNUAL INCREASE IN OPERATING BUDGET. THE OATH OF AFFIRMATION. THE ELECTED CHARTER REVIEW BOARD, AND OTHERS THAT I'M NOT THINKING OF NOW. SO WE'RE GOING TO RUN OUT OF TIME. WE STILL HAVE TO FINISH DOING A LITTLE WORDSMITHING ON THE APPOINTED COUNTY INTERNAL AUDITOR. WE KNOW THAT THAT'S GOING TO BE DONE, AND WE KNOW ALSO THERE WON'T BE ANYTHING ON THE BALLOT UNTIL 2002. THAT MIGHT CAUSE US TO THINK WE'VE GOT PLENTY OF TIME, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE HAVE NINE MORE MEETINGS. SO TO REPEAT MYSELF, STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU DEAL WITH THE -- I'LL CALL IT THE ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE, WHICH IS A CATCH-ALL FOR WHATEVER TEMPLE YOU PUT ON IT, AND IF YOU DON'T DISCUSS IT -- EXCUSE ME. I KNOW YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DECIDE ON IT TONIGHT, BUT AT A MINIMUM, SET A DATE TONIGHT AT WHICH MEETING YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE A VOTE AND THEN BE GUIDED FROM NOW TILL THEN ON THAT. TAKE THAT VOTE, AND THEN LET'S GET INTO SOME OF THESE OTHER ISSUES. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU, MR. HUGHES. I THINK THE WORD YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR IS GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE, THE WORD TO DISCUSS AND GET THAT OUT OF THE WAY. >>GERALD WHITE: MR. CHAIRMAN, I HAVE A COMMENT FOR MR. HUGHES. MR. HUGHES, WE -- WE HAVE POLLED OURSELVES, AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE PRODUCED 23 ITEMS, 1 TO 23 OF OUR PRIORITIES. >> THANK YOU. >>GERALD WHITE: ALTHOUGH WE ARE ONLY SCHEDULED -- ONLY PUBLICLY HAVE SCHEDULED NINE MORE MEETINGS, I WOULD HOPE WE TAKE UP ALL OF THE ITEMS THAT WE'VE EXPRESSED SOME INTEREST AMONGST OURSELVES, AND IF ADDITIONAL MEETINGS IS NECESSARY, TO DO THAT TO COMPLETE THE COMPREHENSIVE STUDY AND TO PRODUCE WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO MAKE CORRECTIONS TO COUNTY STRUCTURE AND GOVERNMENT. I WOULD HOPE THIS BOARD WOULD DO THAT, SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP IN YOUR MIND THAT WE ARE ONLY -- WE ONLY HAVE NINE MEETINGS. I WOULD HOPE THAT WE WOULD TAKE THE NECESSARY TIME TO COMPLETE THE TASK THAT WE'VE BEEN ASSIGNED. >> YOU CAN'T GO BEYOND FEBRUARY. I THINK YOU KNOW THAT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE WEEKLY MEETINGS INSTEAD OF EVERY TWO WEEKS, YOU CAN DO THAT. WHILE I BACK UP, MR. CHAIRMAN, I THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN THE FORM OF STRUCTURE AND ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE BECAUSE YOU COULD KEEP -- YOU COULD KEEP THE SEVEN -- OR THE COMMISSIONERS AND NOT HAVE THE ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE AND STILL -- >> MR. CHAIRMAN, POINT OF ORDER, THIS IS NEW INFORMATION. >>DAVID HURLEY: I DON'T THINK HE RAN OUT OF HIS TIME TO BEGIN WITH. >> I HAVEN'T USED MY FIVE MINUTES, SIR. >> I THOUGHT YOU WERE DONE AND MR. WHITE ASKED YOU A QUESTION. >> HE DID, I ANSWERED IT, AND NOW I WILL USE THE REST OF MY FIVE MINUTES NOW THAT I'M BACK UP HERE. DO YOU HAVE ANY MORE COMPLAINTS TO LODGE? THANK YOU. WE COULD DO THAT WITHOUT DEALING WITH ELECTED COUNTY EXECUTIVE. WE COULD CHANGE THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT WITHOUT THAT. SO I THINK IT'S SOMEWHAT CONNECTED, BUT NOT TOTALLY CONNECTED. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. MS. MERRITT INFORMS ME THAT MR. KARL WARREN WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK. >> GOOD EVENING. KARL WARREN, 1710 EAST NORTH BAY STREET, TAMPA, FLORIDA. I HAVE SEVERAL CONCERNS THAT THIS TIME AROUND, THIS BOARD, AT THE END OF THE DAY IN FEBRUARY, PRODUCE SOMETHING. WE HAVE HAD TOO MANY BOARDS TO SIT AROUND, AND I HAVE PROBABLY BEEN INVOLVED IN ALL OF THOSE BOARDS. PUT MANY HOURS IN TO SEE NOTHING HAPPEN. I KNOW THINGS CAN HAPPEN BECAUSE, AS CHAIRMAN OF THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD FOR ALACHUA COUNTY, CITY OF GAINESVILLE, WE WERE ABLE TO GET A NUMBER OF THINGS THROUGH. THE SECOND THING, I HEARD A GENTLEMAN TALK ABOUT POWER INFLUENCING OF -- EMPLOYMENT. I THINK THE HATCH ACT, I KNOW WHEN I WORKED FOR THE COUNTY, THE COUNTY SEND AROUND TO ALL OF THE DEPARTMENTS AND SHOWED SOME PARAMETERS AS GOVERNED BY THE HATCH ACT. IF THE EMPLOYER OF COUNTY GOVERNMENT CONTINUE TO USE THE HATCH ACT AND RESTRICTING CERTAIN POLITICAL ACTIVITIES, I THINK THAT WILL TAKE CARE OF THAT CONCERN. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS COMMUNITY IS READY FOR AN EXECUTIVE PERSON, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL HIM. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE THIS COMMUNITY IS READY FOR THAT. I BELIEVE THIS COMMUNITY DO NEED TO EXPAND THE PRESENT NUMBERS IN COUNTY COMMISSIONER. I THINK THAT NEED TO BE DONE. BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE EVER BEEN OUT THERE -- AND I THINK MOST OF YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS -- SOME DISTRICTS ARE SO LARGE THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO -- TO SERIOUSLY SAY THAT THEY ARE REPRESENTING THEIR CONSTITUENTS. AND SOME DISTRICTS ARE SUCH THAT THEY -- THAT ONE SIDE OF THEIR DISTRICT IS ONE THING, THE OTHER SIDE IS ANOTHER, UNTIL THERE IS NO CONTIGUOUSNESS, NO COMMUNITY OF INTEREST, AND THE PERSON END UP REPRESENTING THIS SIDE, WHILE THE OTHER SIDE IS NEGLECTED. SO I THINK WE SHOULD CONSIDER COMPACT, CONTIGUOUS COMMUNITY OF INTEREST DISTRICTS FOR COUNTY GOVERNMENT. AND FINALLY, WHAT I HOPE THAT CAN HAPPEN WITH THIS CHARTER REVIEW BOARD, THAT REGARDLESS OF IDEOLOGY, PHILOSOPHY, THAT WE CAN DO WHAT NEED TO BE DONE IN A NONPARTISAN WAY, THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY -- IT'S JUST ONE ITEM. YOU CAN JUST GET ONE THING THROUGH, THAT'S A BEGINNING. REMEMBER THE PREVIOUS BOARDS HAVE NEVER GOTTEN ANYTHING THROUGH, AND I KNOW -- I BELIEVE ALL YOU PEOPLE ARE SERIOUS AND SINCERE ABOUT YOUR TIME. LET'S NOT LET THIS BE ANOTHER DO-NOTHING BOARD. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU, MR. WARREN. I HAVE NO INFORMATION. IF THERE'S ANYONE ELSE THAT'S READY TO SPEAK. I DON'T SEE ANYBODY MAKING SIGNAL TO THAT. THAT WILL END THE PUBLIC COMMENT PORTION OF THE MEETING. WE ARE NOW READY FOR THE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S REPORT. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: GOOD EVENING, BOARD. FOR THE RECORD, MARY HELEN CAMPBELL WITH THE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. I JUST HAD A QUICK REPORT ON SOME OF THE THINGS THAT I DID AS FOLLOW-UP TO THE LAST MEETING. AS SOME PEOPLE MENTIONED TONIGHT, I DID FORWARD THE DOCUMENTS REGARDING POLITICAL ACTIVITY, FLORIDA LAW, ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVES TO BARBARA MERRITT FOR DISTRIBUTION. I ALSO SENT THE FULLY EXECUTED OATH OF OFFICE CHANGE, THE BOARD RESOLUTION, TO THE CHAIR AND TO MR. DAVIS WITH A LETTER THANKING HIM FOR HIS EFFORTS IN THAT. FINALLY, AN ISSUE HAD COME UP REGARDING THE CITIZEN INITIATIVE PROCESS. I PUT A MEMO AT YOUR PLACES. THE BOTTOM LINE IS BASED ON THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION NUMBERS, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TO COLLECT ABOUT 25,000 SIGNATURES. OF THAT, A LITTLE LESS THAN HALF, IF YOU GO BY THE NUMBER OF VOTES IN TWO DISTRICTS, WOULD HAVE TO BE IN TWO CERTAIN DISTRICTS. OBVIOUSLY OUR OFFICE WOULD NOT LEND LEGAL ADVICE OR REPRESENT SOMEBODY AS A PRIVATE, YOU KNOW, CITIZEN TRYING TO PUT INITIATIVE ON, BUT THAT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF WHAT THEY WOULD NEED TO GO THROUGH TO GET THE INITIATIVE ON THE BALLOT. THOSE NUMBERS MAY CHANGE THIS YEAR, AS WE HAVE A NEW PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, AND THEY MAY GO UP OR DOWN, HOPEFULLY UP SOME FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE. THAT'S ALL I HAD UNLESS THERE'S QUESTIONS. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU. DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ANYONE WANTS TO GRILL YOU TONIGHT, MARY HELEN. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: THANK YOU. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: LEAVE QUICKLY. >>DAVID HURLEY: YEAH. DON'T GO AWAY. TIME FOR EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR'S REPORT. >>BARBARA MERRITT: GOOD EVENING, BOARD MEMBERS. BARBARA MERRITT. I HAVE THE -- MY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR'S REPORT THERE WITH ALL THE ACTIVITIES I'VE BEEN DOING. I HAVE A FEW HOUSEKEEPING ITEMS I NEED TO REMIND YOU ABOUT. AS MR. HUGHES HAS ALREADY REMINDED YOU, YOU HAVE NINE MEETINGS LEFT. I PUT A CALENDAR IN THE PACKET TONIGHT SO YOU COULD SEE WHEN THEY'RE SCHEDULED. I STILL WOULD -- I AM SORRY. THE 28th OF DECEMBER, SOME MEMBERS HAVE ALREADY TOLD ME THAT THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ATTEND, SO I NEED TO KNOW AS SOON AS POSSIBLE ABOUT YOUR SCHEDULE SO I CAN LET THE COUNTY FACILITIES KNOW ABOUT THE BUILDING AND OUR MEETING SCHEDULE. OUR THREE MEETINGS -- I AM SORRY -- TWO MEETINGS IN JANUARY, AND OUR LAST MEETING IN FEBRUARY, I HAVE TENTATIVELY SCHEDULED FOR THE 26th FLOOR. AND IF THERE'S ANY CHANGE, I WILL LET YOU KNOW, BUT WE WON'T KNOW BECAUSE THE CALENDAR FOR THE COUNTY STARTS ON OCTOBER 1, SO I AM GOING TO BE PATIENTLY WAITING. YOU'LL KNOW AT THE NEXT MEETING. AND IF YOU HAVE ANY CHANGE OF ADDRESS, YOUR TELEPHONE NUMBERS, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. OUR NEXT MEETING ALREADY SCHEDULED ON OCTOBER 12th AT 6 P.M., AND MAYOR GRECO IS OUR GUEST SPEAKER. >>DAVID HURLEY: DID WANT TO BRING UP, SHE DOES HAVE A MEMO IN THERE ASKING US TO LET HER KNOW IF WE WILL OR WILL NOT BE AT THE 28th MEETING. IF YOU HAVE A PEN, MARK ME DOWN. I WILL BE THERE. >>BARBARA MERRITT: I QUICKLY GLEANED THE REPORTS ABOUT CONCEPTS FOR DISCUSSION, AND THE ELECTED CHAIR IS THE ONE THAT EVERYBODY THAT HAS TURNED IN A -- A -- I DON'T KNOW IF -- A SUGGESTION SHEET OR WHATEVER -- EVERYBODY HAS MENTIONED THAT IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER, AND THE OTHER ONE IS INCREASING THE NUMBER OF B.O.C.C. DISTRICTS, AND EACH OF YOU HAS YOUR OWN CONFIGURATION, SO I CAN'T SAY THAT THERE WAS CONSENSUS OTHER THAN THE ELECTED CHAIRPERSON. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. THANK YOU. >>GERALD WHITE: MR. CHAIR, I HAD A QUESTION FOR BARBARA. EARLIER IN OUR MEETINGS, WE WERE SCHEDULED TO HEAR FROM THE SHERIFF. THAT'S THE ONLY CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICER WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM. IS HE PLANNING ON COMING BEFORE THE BOARD? >>BARBARA MERRITT: I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET A DATE FROM SHERIFF HENDERSON, BUT I'LL CONTINUE. HE SENT A PACKET. ALL OF YOU GOT THE BUDGET. AND I DIDN'T KNOW IF THERE WERE ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS YOU WANTED TO DIRECT TO THE SHERIFF OTHER THAN COMING TO SPEAK TO US. DO YOU HAVE A BUNCH OF -- I SHOULDN'T SAY A BUNCH. DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC REALM OF QUESTIONS? >>GERALD WHITE: I JUST KNOW HE IS THE ONLY CONSTITUTIONAL THAT HASN'T COME BEFORE US. I DIDN'T WANT TO DEPRIVE HIM OF THE OPPORTUNITY. I DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WANTED TO COME OR THOUGHT WANT TO COME. >>BARBARA MERRITT: YES. I HAVE VISITED WITH THE SHERIFF THREE TIMES ALREADY. >>GERALD WHITE: OKAY. >>BARBARA MERRITT: HIS SCHEDULE IS VERY TIGHT. >>DAVID HURLEY: I DON'T THINK HE WANTED TO. HE CARRIES A GUN. IF HE WANTS TO COME, WE'LL LET HIM. >>BARBARA MERRITT: I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW FOR THE RECORD, THERE ARE TWO DEPUTIES THAT HAVE BEEN IN OUR AUDIENCE EVERY TIME, AND HE GETS A FULL REPORT, AND WE GIVE HIM PACKETS. >>GERALD WHITE: WELL, HIS OPINION IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME, AND IF HE WANTED TO EXPRESS HIS OPINION ON ANY OF THE ISSUES, THAT ARE OUT THERE THAT ARE PUBLICLY KNOWN NOW, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN FEEL FREE TO DO IT. YOU KNOW, WE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM HIM. >>BARBARA MERRITT: ALL RIGHT. >>DAVID HURLEY: MS. WILLIAMS HAD A -- >>DEE WILLIAMS: BARBARA, THE INQUIRIES THAT WE SENT OUT WITH THE WATER BILLS, AND YOU KNOW, THE LITTLE FORM WE SENT OUT ON WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT ABOUT OUR GOVERNMENT AND HOW IT OPERATES, DID YOU EVER DO A SORT OF A TALLY OF -- >>BARBARA MERRITT: I AM IN THE PROCESS OF DOING THAT RIGHT NOW. I AM TRYING TO GET ALL OF THE ANSWERS TO FIT -- I DON'T WANT TO FORCE THE ANSWERS. I WANT TO TRY TO GET LIKE WITH LIKE. >>DEE WILLIAMS: ABOUT HOW MANY OF THOSE DID YOU GET BACK? >>BARBARA MERRITT: 200 AND SOMETHING. I STOPPED COUNTING. AND I STILL GET THEM IN RANDOMLY. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU. >> MR. CHAIR, I THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT, IF WE'VE GOTTEN 200 AND SOME RESPONSES, I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THEM PRETTY SOON. SO I WOULD -- EVEN IF YOU JUST -- >>BARBARA MERRITT: THAT'S WHAT I AM WORKING ON. I HAVE MADE COPIES EVERY TIME I'VE GOTTEN THEM IN. YOU HAVE THEM. >> NOT ADDITIONAL TO WHAT YOU'VE GIVEN US. >>BARBARA MERRITT: LIKE THERE'S TWO IN THE PACKET TONIGHT THAT CAME IN. >>GERALD WHITE: I HAD A QUESTION, TOO, RELATED TO THE WEB SITE. IS THERE A TALLY ON HOW MANY HITS THE CHARTER REVIEW BOARD WEB SITE IS GETTING? >>BARBARA MERRITT: I HAVE TO ASK MS. LEVINE A QUESTION BECAUSE I'M NOT QUITE SURE. YES, THERE IS A TALLY, BUT BECAUSE WE ARE A LINK OFF OF THE WEB, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S DIRECTLY TO US OR DIRECTLY EVERY TIME IT GOES TO THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY WEB SITE. >>GERALD WHITE: IF WE CAN GET A REPORT HOW MANY CITIZENS ARE LOGGING IN TO OUR WEB SITE, READING OUR MINUTES AND OUR PROCEEDINGS, THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO GET A SENSE THAT THE CITIZENS ARE PAYING ATTENTION RELATED TO OUR BOARD. IT WOULD BE GREAT TO GET A REPORT ON THAT. >>BARBARA MERRITT: OKAY. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. THANK YOU. OKAY. WE'RE SCHEDULED THIS EVENING TO DISCUSS GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE. IT'S 5 TILL 7. WHY DON'T WE THROW OUT A FEW THINGS AT THE -- AND ABOUT 7:30, TAKE OUR BREAK, AND THEN COME BACK AND CONTINUE THAT DISCUSSION. I DID LOOK AT MR. BEDKE'S PASS-OUT, BRIEFLY, JUST SCANNED IT REALLY QUICKLY, AND I THINK HE COVERED EVERYTHING I'VE EVER THOUGHT ABOUT IN THREE PAGES. BUT I THINK -- THE LAST MONTH'S MEETING, WE DID SET A TIME ON THE 12th TO DISCUSS AND TAKE A STRAW VOTE ON REAL TERM LIMITS AND NONPARTISAN ELECTIONS, WHICH ARE TWO OF THE THINGS IN MR. BEDKE'S THING. THAT WILL RIDE. UNTIL THAT TIME, WE'LL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO READ IT. MR. AMBLER. >>KEVIN AMBLER: WE'RE ON STRUCTURE, RIGHT? >>DAVID HURLEY: YES. >>KEVIN AMBLER: OKAY. I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO READ THE PROPOSALS THAT CAME AROUND. I BELIEVE I SAW MR. LaBOUR'S. I SAW MARY LOU TUTTLE'S. I SAW YOURS, MR. CHAIRMAN, AND I SAW MR. BEDKE'S, AND ONE OF THE COMMON THEMES I SEE RUNNING THROUGH THOSE, BEFORE WE LOOK AT THE CONCEPT OF THE CHAIR ASPECT, IS IT WOULD -- IT'S BECOMING MORE APPARENT TO ME THAT THERE'S A RUNNING CONSENSUS THAT MAYBE WE NEED TO LOOK AT HAVING NINE COMMISSIONERS INSTEAD OF SEVEN, AND I SAW THAT AS A THEME, VARIANCE ON THE SAME THEME, WHETHER ONE OF THOSE NINE SHOULD BE AN ELECTED CHAIR OR NOT. I JUST WANT TO SET THAT ASIDE FOR A SECOND AND JUST LOOK AT THE COMMISSION STRUCTURE ITSELF. THE BENEFITS OF HAVING NINE SEEM TO BE RESPONSIVE TO ALL THE CONCERNS THAT WE'VE THOUGHT ABOUT WITH THE EXPANDING POPULATION OF THE COUNTY, WITH VARIOUS ASPECTS OF THE DISTRICT -- OR OF THE ENTIRE COUNTY, PERHAPS NOT HAVING ADEQUATE REPRESENTATION WITH THE CONCERN OF THERE BEING A MINORITY DISTRICT CONTINUING TO HAVE REPRESENTATION. AND I WOULD LIKE TO OPEN UP THE DISCUSSION AMONG THE MEMBERS OF THIS BOARD TO JUST FOCUSING ON THE THOUGHT OF GOING FROM THE SEVEN-COMMISSIONER STRUCTURE TO A NINE-COMMISSIONER STRUCTURE, AND I WOULD PROPOSE, ALONG THE SAME LINES OF MR. BEDKE'S PROPOSAL, THAT WE LOOK AT ONE OF THOSE ADDITIONAL SEATS BEING AN AT-LARGE AND ONE BEING AN INDIVIDUAL DISTRICT. AND WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE AT-LARGE DISTRICTS THAT WE RETURN BACK TO THE DISCUSSION ORIGINALLY -- EXCUSE ME -- ORIGINALLY BROUGHT UP BY DEE WILLIAMS, AND THAT WAS KIND OF REGIONALIZING THE AT-LARGE DISTRICTS. THAT WOULD GIVE US FOUR AT-LARGE DISTRICTS IN TOTAL, AND WE COULD DISCUSS SOME KIND OF GEOGRAPHIC DISTRIBUTION. THE ONLY THING, THEN, LEFT, KIND OF AS AN OPEN-ENDED ITEM, WHICH KIND OF RUNS AS SOMEWHAT A THEME THROUGH THESE PROPOSALS AND DISCUSSIONS WE'VE HAD IS WHETHER ONE OF THOSE AT-LARGE DISTRICTS COULD BE DESIGNATED AS A CHAIRMAN OR NOT, AND I THINK WE CAN TAKE THOSE IN ARLENE WALDRON'S TERMS IN BITE-SIZE CHUNKS SO WE CAN AT LEAST MOVE FORWARD CONCEPTUALLY WITH EACH ONE OF THOSE CATEGORIZATION AND SEE IF WE GET SOME CONSENSUS. >>DENISE LASHER: I DID WANT TO MAKE ONE COMMENT REGARDING THE -- YOUR THOUGHT THAT IF WE ENLARGE THE BOARD AND HAD ONE ADDITIONAL SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT THAT WE WOULD -- COULD CREATE A DISTRICT THAT HAD MAJORITY OF MINORITY REPRESENTATION. >>KEVIN AMBLER: I SAID WE COULD ENCOMPASS THAT IN OUR DISCUSSION OF LOOKING AT -- IF WE'RE ADDING A SEAT TO ENSURE THAT THE WAY THE VARIOUS DISTRICTS ARE DIVIDED WOULD ENSURE MINORITY REPRESENTATION. >>DENISE LASHER: THE SCHOOL BOARD WENT TO FIVE, TOO, BASED ON A REFERENDUM THAT WENT TO THE VOTERS. THE MOST THEY COULD CUT OUT OF THE ENTIRE COUNTY AS FAR AS TRYING TO PIECEMEAL PRECINCTS TOGETHER TO COME UP TO MAXIMIZE ONE DISTRICT WAS AROUND 30% MINORITY REPRESENTATION. SO I DON'T KNOW -- CURRENTLY THE -- THE DISTRICT THAT'S CURRENTLY HELD BY COMMISSIONER TOM SCOTT, I DON'T KNOW THE DISTRICT NUMBER. I APOLOGIZE. >>DEE WILLIAMS: THREE. >>DENISE LASHER: AND I DON'T KNOW THE MINORITY PERCENT BREAKOUT OF THAT PARTICULAR DISTRICT. I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN THE 30%. I THINK THEY ENDED UP APPROVING AN ALIGNMENT THAT THEY HAD 28%, SOMEWHERES AROUND THERE. JUST KEEP THAT IN MIND IF THAT'S WHAT THE PURPOSE WAS OR ONE OF THE REASONS FOR EXPANDING IT, YOU STILL WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH THAT FEAT. OKAY? BECAUSE THEY TRIED VERY, VERY HARD TO DO THAT, AND THAT WAS THE BEST THEY COULD DO BECAUSE THE PRECINCTS HAVE TO BE CONTIGUOUS, AS YOU KNOW, AND IT MAKES IT, YOU KNOW, DIFFICULT TO DO THAT. FORTUNATELY WE'VE HAD, YOU KNOW, AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN DIVERSELY POPULATED IN OUR COUNTY. WE'VE BEEN FORTUNATE THAT WE'VE HAD SOME OF THAT HAPPEN, NOT ENOUGH, SO IT DOES MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO CARVE OUT A DISTRICT AND STILL HAVE THE SAME PERCENTAGE OF VOTERS REPRESENTED IN ALL THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. JUST WANTED TO SHARE THAT WITH YOU. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. MR. LaBOUR. >>STEVE LaBOUR: I APPRECIATE, AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE SCHOOL BOARD WENT THROUGH IN -- THE SCHOOL DISTRICT WENT THROUGH IN DOING THAT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD LIMIT OUR DISCUSSION ABOUT IT IN ANY WAY. I THINK THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS, AND THOSE ARE ISSUES WE PROBABLY HAVE TO DEAL WITH. I DO THINK, THOUGH, THE NUMBER, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE NUMBER OF DISTRICTS, I DON'T THINK WE CAN DO IT OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF WHAT THE MAKEUP OF THAT WOULD BE. I DON'T THINK IT'S AS SIMPLE AS SAYING LET'S JUST DO NINE BECAUSE IF THEY'RE ALL SINGLE MEMBER, THAT MIGHT BE A DIFFERENT ISSUE THAN IF SOME OF THEM WERE AT LARGE AND SOME OF THEM WEREN'T. SO I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT THE MEMORANDUM I PASSED OUT WAS JUST AN OUTLINE. I PUT IT TOGETHER IN -- IN REALLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT MANY OF YOU HAD EXPRESSED AS YOUR CONCERNS, AND AGAIN, THE DEVIL WILL BE IN THE DETAILS, BUT I THINK THAT ACTUALLY I WAS ABLE TO -- TO INCORPORATE MANY OF THE CONCERNS THAT I HEARD, AND I JUST WANT TO GO THROUGH MINE REAL QUICKLY, IF I MAY. IT WOULD BE A TOTAL OF NINE MEMBERS -- FIVE WOULD BE ELECTED FROM A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. FOUR WOULD BE ELECTED FROM AT LARGE, WITH ONE OF THOSE FOUR BEING A COUNTY MAYOR. NOW, I AM NOT WHETED TO THE TERM "MAYOR." IT COULD BE ELECTED CHAIR OR ELECTED EXECUTIVE. I DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO BE HUNG UP ON THE TERM "MAYOR." >> HOW ABOUT HIS EXCELLENCY? >>STEVE LaBOUR: THAT PARTICULAR POSITION WOULD NOT HAVE A RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT, BUT THE OTHER THREE AT-LARGE WOULD HAVE A RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT. I SPELLED OUT SOME OF THE DUTIES OR POWERS THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED TO THIS ELECTED EXECUTIVE, IF YOU WILL. I ALSO BELIEVE VERY FIRMLY THAT THE COUNTY MANAGER OR COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR SHOULD BE APPOINTED BY THE FULL BOARD AND SERVE AT THEIR PLEASURE, AND I BELIEVE THAT THE DEPARTMENT HEADS WOULD REPORT TO THE COUNTY MANAGER. AND I LISTED THE REASONS WHY BELOW. WHY I THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS MAYBE A GOOD START AS TO WHERE WE'RE GOING. I DON'T KNOW HOW THE CHAIR WANTS TO PROCEED, BUT I THINK AS WE DID WITH THE COUNTY AUDITOR, IF WE CAN TAKE ONE PROPOSAL -- IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE MINE. IT COULD BE ANYBODY'S. BUT I THINK WE START TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES AND PROBABLY WE'D GET A FAIRLY GOOD CONVERSATION. >>DAVID HURLEY: MR. BEDKE. >>MIKE BEDKE: I JUST WANT TO -- I JUST WANT TO SECOND STEVE'S COMMENTS. BASICALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT MY PROPOSAL, THEY'RE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL IN TERMS OF THE CONCEPTS, SO THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ON THIS COMPONENT. HE HAD A COUPLE OF POINTS IN THERE THAT HE ARTICULATED THAT WERE NOT SPELLED OUT IN MINE, SUCH AS THE COUNTY MANAGER WOULD BE APPOINTED BY THE FULL BOARD AND THAT THE DEPARTMENT HEADS WOULD REPORT TO THE COUNTY MANAGER, BUT I CONCUR WITH THOSE. >>DAVID HURLEY: POINT OUT TO ANYBODY THAT WAS WONDERING THAT MR. BEDKE'S BEEN OUT OF TOWN, JUST GOT BACK TODAY, SO -- MS. TUTTLE, AND THEN MR. BELTRAN. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: I HAVE A QUESTION FOR STEVE. STEVE, YOU SAID THE THREE ELECTED AT LARGE WOULD HAVE GEOGRAPHIC RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS. HOW WOULD YOU MANAGE THAT? >>STEVE LaBOUR: DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS, MARY LOU. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: GIVE ME A LITTLE BIT OF THE DEVIL. >>STEVE LaBOUR: I THINK THE CONCERN WAS -- >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: THAT THEY ALL NOT COME FROM SOUTH TAMPA. >>STEVE LaBOUR: AND NOT COME FROM ONE PART OF THE COUNTY. SO I THINK WE WOULD OBVIOUSLY -- I DON'T KNOW HOW WE WOULD DO IT, BUT WE WOULD COME UP WITH SOME WAY OF DIVIDING THE COUNTY INTO THREE DIFFERENT AREAS, AND EACH DISTRICT AT LARGE, THE PERSON WOULD HAVE TO RESIDE IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA. AND AGAIN, THE CHAIRMAN -- CHAIRPERSON OR EXECUTIVE COULD BE -- >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: FROM ANYWHERE. >>STEVE LaBOUR: DIDN'T MATTER WHERE THEY LIVED. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: WOULD THEY HAVE A FOUR-YEAR TERM, THE ELECTED CHAIR? >>STEVE LaBOUR: YES, THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING. YES. >>DAVID HURLEY: MR. BELTRAN. >>HENRY BELTRAN: WELL, I AM THINKING QUITE -- QUITE A BIT ABOUT THIS DECISION ABOUT ADDING MORE PEOPLE. THE QUESTION I HAVE, IF THE ONE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, AS COMMISSIONERS, CAN REPRESENT AND PERFORM THEIR JOB THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE, WHY ADD MORE PEOPLE? AND IF THEY'RE NOT DOING IT, WHY ARE WE ELECTING THEM? I FEEL THAT IF WE GET SUFFICIENT HELP TO THE COMMISSIONER, WE DON'T HAVE TO ELECT MORE PEOPLE. WE JUST HAVE TO PRODUCE MORE WORK. BECAUSE THE POPULATION IS GROWING, YES, BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN DISTRICT 3, WE HAVE ONE COMMISSIONER. BUT, THE QUESTION IS, WHAT ASSISTANCE HAS BEEN GIVEN TO HIM TO PROVIDE THE SERVICE THAT THE DISTRICT NEEDS? IT HASN'T BEEN SHOWN YET. AND THAT'S, TO ME, IT'S NOT JUST ADDING MORE PEOPLE -- MORE ELECTED PEOPLE, BUT WHAT WE NEED IS MORE SERVICES. AND TO MAKE SURE THAT THE COMMISSIONERS WORK TOGETHER FOR THE -- FOR THE WHOLE COUNTY, NOT JUST ONE DISTRICT OR ANOTHER DISTRICT. BECAUSE ONE DISTRICT GOT EVERYTHING, THE OTHER DISTRICT DOESN'T GET ANYTHING. I THINK THEY SHOULD WORK FOR THE COUNTY AND WORK TOGETHER TO BETTER OUR COMMUNITY. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. MR. AMBLER. >>KEVIN AMBLER: AM I NEXT UP? OKAY. I JUST WANTED TO, FOR PURPOSES OF MAKING THIS A LIVELY DISCUSSION, PROPOSE A COUPLE THINGS OR PUT THESE OUT FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION AS A COUNTERPOINT TO EXPANSION OF THE BOARD. I WANTED TO GET THAT ON THE TABLE BECAUSE I THINK THAT IT CAN BE A WHOLE DIFFERENT KETTLE OF FISH TO BE TALKING ABOUT THE ELECTED MAYOR OF POSITION. ONE OF MY OBSERVATIONS THAT I'VE SEEN WITH THE COMMISSION, AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IT BRIEFLY IN THE PAST, IS THE FACT THAT IT'S CONSIDERED A PART-TIME JOB. AND WE KNOW THE FALLACY OF THAT. I MEAN, IT'S A FULL-TIME JOB. IT'S PROBABLY TWO FULL-TIME JOBS IN ONE. BUT I THINK THE REASON THAT REQUIREMENT WAS MADE SO THAT MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION COULD DO OTHER THINGS. WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE CITIZENS THAT WANT TO RUN FOR A COMMISSION TO NOT HAVE TO GIVE UP THEIR OTHER JOBS. BUT IN POINT OF FACT, IN TERMS OF REAL-TIME REQUIREMENTS, IT IS. ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT BEFORE WE LOOK AT TRYING TO INCREASE THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT BY ENLARGING IT TO A WHOLE NEW BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, THAT IS AN EXECUTIVE, IS WITHIN THE CONFINES OF OUR EXISTING, WHAT I'LL CALL THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, WHICH IS THE COMMISSION ITSELF, DO WE HAVE THE PRESENT COMMISSION ADEQUATELY STAFFED WITH THE SUPPORT THAT THEY NEED TO GET THE JOB DONE? AND I THINK THAT MAY BE THE POINT THAT MR. BELTRAN WAS MAKING. YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT A COMMISSIONER WITH A DISTRICT THAT'S GOT 250,000 PEOPLE. PERHAPS HE NEEDS MORE THAN A STAFF OF ONE OR TWO PEOPLE THAT ARE HIS DISTRICT AIDES TO SERVICE THOSE FOLKS. IF WE USE THE ANALOGY OF A PERSON WHO IS ELECTED FROM THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AS OPPOSED TO A SENATOR FROM -- AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT THE SUPPORT STAFF THAT THOSE FOLKS ARE GIVEN. I MEAN, CONGRESSMAN GIBBONS WAS ABLE TO HANDLE HIS DISTRICT ADEQUATELY AND WAS ALWAYS CONSIDERED FOR THE 30-SOME-ODD YEARS THAT HE SERVED IN CONGRESS TO BE AN OUTSTANDING MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND ALWAYS RESPONSIVE. JUST TO SHARE WITH YOU AN ANECDOTAL INCIDENT, WHEN I WAS ON ACTIVE DUTY AT MACDILL, EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE WE HAD THE UNPLEASANTLY OF GETTING A CONGRESSIONAL. A CITIZEN WRITES TO A CONGRESSMAN ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IRKS THEM. WE WOULD GET IT BECAUSE IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHAT'S GOING ON AT MACDILL. WE HAD 24-HOUR TURNAROUND TIMES TO GET RESPONSES BACK. CONGRESSMAN GIBBONS' OFFICE WAS THE MOST RESPONSIVE. THOSE CONGRESSIONALS WERE ON OUR DESK WITHIN 24 HOURS HE HAD IT, OUR THEIR OFFICE WAS ALL OVER US IF WE DIDN'T HAVE OUR RESPONSE BACK IN 24 HOURS. HE HAD A PHENOMENAL STAFF. ONE OF THE CONCERNS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS WHETHER OUR COUNTY COMMISSION IS RESPONSIVE TO THE NEEDS OF THE CITIZENRY, WHETHER WE FEEL THEY ARE BEING HEARD AND REPRESENTED AND THEIR NEEDS BEING MET. IS THAT ANSWER IN EXPANDING THE COMMISSION OR IN EXAMINING WHAT EXACTLY IS THE COMMISSION, HOW IT OPERATES PRESENTLY, AND DOES IT GET THE SUPPORT IT NEEDS. IT WOULD BE A LOT EASIER FINANCIALLY TO ADD A COUPLE OF ADMINISTRATIVE SUPPORT PER COMMISSIONER THAN GIVE THESE, QUOTE, PART-TIME EMPLOYEES THE KIND OF HELP THAT THEY NEED TO DIGEST THE VOLUME OF INFORMATION THEY HAVE THAN TO BE ADDING JUST MORE PEOPLE AND, IN MY OPINION, FUEL TO THE FIRE, WHICH INSTEAD OF BREAKING UP SOME OF THE DISSENSION THAT HAS BEEN REPORTED IN THE PRESS, MAY INCREASE IT. I MEAN, YOU GOT SEVEN FOLKS THAT ARE TRYING THEIR VERY BEST TO DO A GOOD JOB. THEY DON'T ALWAYS AGREE. I DON'T THINK THAT'S A BAD THING. THAT'S DEMOCRACY. BUT THEY DO NEED SUPPORT STAFF. THEY DO NEED THE ABILITY TO DIGEST A BILLION-DOLLAR COUNTY BUDGET. THEY DO NEED THE ABILITY TO GET AN INPUT FROM A PERFORMANCE AUDITOR. WE'VE DONE SOME GOOD THINGS ON THIS BOARD FOR THE COMMISSION. IF THE PUBLIC CHOOSES TO VOTE THAT PERFORMANCE AUDITOR IN, THAT'S ONE PIECE OF THE PUZZLE THAT'S REALLY GOING TO HELP THE COMMISSION -- THE PRESENT COMMISSION -- DO A BETTER JOB, BY GIVING THEM THE SUPPORT STAFF THEY NEED MAY BE THE OTHER COMPONENT. BEFORE YOU GO TINKERING WITH CREATING A WHOLE NEW BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS UNTOLD FINANCIAL RAMIFICATIONS IN TERMS OF THE COST OF THAT BRANCH, LOOK AT THE MINIMAL COST IT WOULD BE IN IMPROVING THE CAPABILITY OF YOUR EXISTING GROUP. AND I DON'T KNOW. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE FIGURES. I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT IT AT AN EARLIER MEETING. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE FIGURES AGAIN, JUST TO BE REMINDED OF WHAT THE MAYOR'S BUDGET IS, JUST FOR THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OVER THERE IN THE CITY AS COMPARED TO THE CITY COUNCIL, AND COMPARE -- AND ALSO, IN SOME OF OUR OTHER COUNTIES THAT HAVE GONE TO THE MAYORAL OR ELECTED MAYOR, ELECTED CHAIR SYSTEM. WHAT THAT, QUOTE, EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT COSTS THAT COUNTY. I WANT TO BE CONSIDERING SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO, IN TURN, CAUSE US TO HAVE TO RAISE TAXES ALL IN THE NAME OF SPEARHEADING SOME KIND OF IMPROVEMENT IN OUR SYSTEM THAT MAY NOT BE JUSTIFIED FOR THE COST. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. I WANTED TO SPEAK NEXT. WITH REGARD TO THAT -- AND I HAVE TOLD YOU SEVERAL TIMES, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MR. KLEMAN TOLD US IN HIS PRESENTATION THAT I TOOK TO HEART WAS FIRST, IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM, AND THEN SEE IF YOU HAVE A SOLUTION. DON'T FIND A SOLUTION AND SEE IF THERE IS A PROBLEM THAT FITS. I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING COMING FROM A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL, BUT THAT'S OBVIOUSLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IT'S DIFFERENT. IF IT'S NOT BROKE, FIX IT UNTIL IT IS. I THINK THE TWO THINGS I'VE HEARD REPEATEDLY FROM BOTH PUBLIC OFFICIALS AND PRIVATE CITIZENS DEALS WITH TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, TWO SPECIFIC THINGS I CAN IDENTIFY. ONE OF THOSE IS LEADERSHIP, AND THE OTHER IS REPRESENTATION. WE'VE HAD PEOPLE TWO MEETINGS IN A ROW TALKING ABOUT REPRESENTATION, FAIR REPRESENTATION. THEY EVEN HAVE -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ACRONYM STANDS FOR AGAIN, BUT THEY THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE MORE REPRESENTATION FOR DISTRICT 4 BECAUSE OF ITS SIZE, AND I THINK THAT WILL CHANGE WITH THIS NEXT REAPPORTIONMENT. THOSE ARE THE THINGS I LOOKED AT WHEN I SENT THE PROPOSAL IN I HAD, WHICH WENT TO NINE COMMISSIONERS, ONE AT LARGE AND EIGHT SINGLE-MEMBER. WITH EIGHT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, ABOUT 125,000 PER DISTRICT. YOU COULD CAMPAIGN IN A DISTRICT LIKE THAT -- I THINK YOU COULD GET PEOPLE TO RUN FOR OFFICE THAT MIGHT NOT RUN IN AN AREA WHERE YOU HAVE TO CAMPAIGN ON A DISTRICT THE SIZE OF A QUARTER MILLION PEOPLE AND WITH THE GEOGRAPHIC SIZES OF ALL THE DISTRICTS IN THIS COUNTY, EXCEPT FOR, PROBABLY, DISTRICT 3 IS ONE OF THE MORE COMPACT DISTRICTS. IF YOU TAKE DISTRICT 1, WHERE YOU HAVE SOUTH TAMPA AND TOWN 'N COUNTRY, TWO DIVERSE AREAS WITH TWO DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON. SO GEOGRAPHICALLY, COMMISSIONER FROM DISTRICT 1 IS TORN, SOMETIMES, IN HOW HE'S REPRESENTING IT. AND POINT OUT THAT EACH COMMISSIONER, NO MATTER HOW MANY THERE ARE, VOTES ON EVERY ISSUE ALL OVER THE COUNTY, NO MATTER WHETHER YOU'RE ELECTED AT LARGE OR ELECTED IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. IN THE LEGISLATURE, I ONLY HAVE ONE REPRESENTATION IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, STATE OF FLORIDA. THERE IS ONLY ONE I GOT TO VOTE FOR, AND THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF THEM THERE. SAME WAY IN THE SENATE AND SO ON. SO I THINK IF WE WENT TO THOSE DISTRICTS, THE EIGHT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, YOU COULD GET THEM SMALL ENOUGH YOU MIGHT GET MORE PEOPLE TO RUN FOR OFFICE. IT'S GOING TO BE CHEAPER. IF YOU GO TO THE AT-LARGE FOR THE LEADERSHIP FOR THE PEOPLE TO LOOK FOR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, THAT COULD HAPPEN WITH THE AT-LARGE, WHICH WOULD BECOME THE MAYOR, THE CHAIRMAN, THE CHIEF SOMETHING, AND MR. KLEMAN SAID IF YOU ELECT THAT PERSON, CALL HIM THE MAYOR. I AM NOT SURE IF I AGREE WITH HIM ON THAT. BUT THAT'S -- YOU KNOW, A TITLE DOESN'T MEAN AS MUCH AS STEVE SAYS, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. WHAT CAN THAT CHAIRMAN DO? WHAT ARE HIS RESPONSIBILITIES? BUT I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT WE NEED TO GET TO. I THINK WE'RE LOOKING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY, RESPONSIBILITY, AND TO GET RESPONSIBILITY, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO ACT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOUR ELECTED CHAIRMAN DOES, AND CHECKS AND BALANCES, AND WE NEED TO HAVE THAT -- THE WAY I PROPOSED IT WITH THE ENTIRE BOARD. AND ACTUALLY, THE DISTRICTS -- WOULD HAVE TO GET FIVE OF THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS TO APPROVE THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR THAT WOULD BE APPOINTED. SO THAT'S MY POSITION, AND WHERE I CAME FROM, AND MR. BEDKE, YOU'RE NEXT. >>MIKE BEDKE: WELL, I JUST WANTED TO INDICATE THAT IT'S -- IT'S A BIT FRIGHTENING TO ME TO HEAR ABOUT A SOLUTION THAT INCLUDES, REALLY, INCREASING THE BUREAUCRACY. WE ARE SAYING WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE THIS -- THIS NEED OF GREATER REPRESENTATION AND CREATE A COUPLE OF ADDITIONAL CHAIRS, WHICH TRULY ARE COMMISSIONERS WHICH CLEARLY BRINGS GOVERNMENT CLOSER TO THE PEOPLE, BUT IN FACT, WE WANT TO GIVE STAFF, AND I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT'S REALLY THE RIGHT SOLUTION. I -- I DID NOT HEAR A SINGLE COMMISSIONER COME AND SAY THE TOOL THAT I NEED TO DO MY JOB BETTER IS A BIGGER STAFF. AND I THINK IF THAT WERE REALLY THE CONCERN, THAT WE WOULD HAVE HEARD THAT FROM THEM. AND SO I THINK THE INCREASING OR EXPANSION OF THE BOARD DOES BRING ACCOUNTABILITY. IT BRINGS SOMEBODY CLOSER TO THEIR DISTRICT. SINCE WE'RE PROBABLY NOT, FOR CONSTITUTIONAL REASONS OR OTHERWISE, GOING TO BE ABLE TO WRESTLE WITH TORT REFORM -- OR EXCUSE ME -- [ LAUGHTER ] >> WE'D LIKE TO HAVE THAT TOO. >> EAT THOSE WORDS. >>MIKE BEDKE: -- TO HAVE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, IT DOES MAKE IT EASIER FOR SOMEBODY TO RUN. AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS HAVE THIS NOTION THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE IN OUR SOCIETY OF A CITIZEN LEGISLATOR, AND I THINK BY EXPANDING THE BOARD, WE CAN DO THAT. I -- I WILL TELL YOU, AS I'VE TOLD YOU BEFORE, I THINK MY GUT REACTION WAS NOT TO INCREASE THE SIZE OF THE BOARD. AND I THINK AT SOME POINT, IT DOES BECOME TOO LARGE AND TOO UNWIELDY. BUT FOR A COUNTY AS DIVERSE AND AS POPULATED AS OURS, I THINK AN EXPANSION OF THE BOARD MAKES SENSE. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU FOR MAKING SURE THAT WE WERE ALL AWAKE. THAT'S -- AND EVERYONE WAS. MS. TUTTLE IS NEXT, AND THEN MS. LASHER. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: WE RECEIVED FIVE RESPONSES. THAT MEANS NINE PEOPLE HAVE NOT YET PUT FORTH THEIR IDEAS FOR US TO TEAR APART OR -- YOU KNOW, PULL TOGETHER, MAKE A TRAIN OUT OF, WHATEVER. I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM THOSE WHO DID NOT GIVE US ANYTHING TO CHEW ON. HOW ABOUT YOU, MR. BALES? >>JOHN BALES: YOU'RE ASKING FOR MY OPINION? [ LAUGHTER ] I ALWAYS HAVE AN UPON. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: DO WE HAVE TIME? >>JOHN BALES: I ALWAYS HAVE AN OPINION. IS THAT WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW? >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: WE WERE GIVEN -- REMEMBER LAST TIME WE WERE GIVEN THE HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT TO PLEASE PUT DOWN OUR THOUGHTS AND -- ON RESTRUCTURING GOVERNMENT, AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T. MR. WHITE -- >>DAVID HURLEY: IF YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE -- >>JOHN BALES: NO, I'D LIKE TO RESPOND. I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN A COUPLE OF CONCEPTS, AND ONE WAS THE WAY TO KEEP POWER IS NOT TO USE IT. I'VE ALWAYS ALSO THOUGHT THAT THE FEWER WORDS YOU SAY, THE BETTER YOUR WORDS ARE. SO WHEN I SEE PEOPLE COME UP WITH IDEAS THAT I AGREE WITH, I DON'T THINK I NEED TO WRITE IT DOWN AGAIN FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE. SO DON'T FOR ONE MINUTE THINK I'M NOT SITTING HERE THINKING. DON'T THINK FOR ONE MINUTE I DON'T HAVE OPINIONS, BUT I AM ALLOWING PEOPLE TO VOICE THEM, AND I AGREE WITH MANY OF THEM. IF AT ANY TIME SOMEBODY WANTS TO HEAR MY OPINION, BE CONFIDENT I HAVE THE ABILITY TO EXPRESS IT. >>DENISE LASHER: I AM ONE OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO DIDN'T PUT MY THOUGHTS IN WRITING, AND SO I'LL BE HAPPY TO SHARE SOME OF MY THOUGHTS AND SOME OF MY CONCERNS THAT I HAVE WITH SOME OF THE DISCUSSIONS THAT WE'RE HAVING. I HEAR THAT THE PURPOSE -- WHAT I'M HEARING FROM THOSE THAT WANT TO ADD MORE COMMISSIONERS, THAT THE PURPOSE IS TO PROVIDE BETTER REPRESENTATION TO THE CITIZENS, AND I KNOW WE HAD A NUMBER OF COMMISSIONERS THAT CAME AND SPOKE TO US, AND I DON'T RECALL IF ANY OF THEM INDICATED THAT THEY WERE IN FAVOR OF EXPANDING THE BOARD OR GOING TO ALL SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. I DON'T RECALL THEM SAYING THAT. MENTION WAS MADE ABOUT GIVING THEM MORE SUPPORT STAFF. I DON'T THINK THE CHARTER ADDRESSES THE NUMBER OF SUPPORT STAFF THAT THE COMMISSIONERS HAVE, SO IF THEY FELT LIKE THEY NEEDED MORE, THEY COULD CERTAINLY TAKE THAT UP AT BUDGET TIME AND REQUEST ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR THAT. WHEN YOU ADD MORE COMMISSIONERS, OBVIOUSLY YOU WOULD HAVE MORE REPRESENTATIVES. YOU ALSO WOULD HAVE MORE COST INVOLVED, AND I KNOW THAT WE'VE ALL HEARD SOME OF THOSE COMMENTS, NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE THE SALARIES OF THE COMMISSIONERS, BUT ALL THEIR SUPPORT STAFF. THEN WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT LOCATING THEM IN THIS BUILDING? WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO FIND OFFICE SPACE FOR ALL OF THEM? THERE WOULD MORE THAN LIKELY NEED TO BE RENOVATION THAT IS WOULD HAVE TO BE DONE. BEFORE I WOULD WANT TO VOTE ON THIS, I WOULD WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE LONG-TERM COSTS WOULD BE ON AN ANNUALIZED BASIS TO HAVE TWO MORE COMMISSIONERS AND WHAT THE INITIAL COSTS WOULD BE. I THINK IF THIS WENT TO THE VOTERS, I THINK THE VOTERS NEED TO KNOW THAT INFORMATION ALSO. I THINK YOU'D HAVE TO SHARE THAT WITH THEM BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO INCREASE THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT OR INCREASE THE COST OF GOVERNMENT. I FIND THAT THE BIGGER THE BOARDS, THE MORE DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET CONSENSUS. I THINK IF YOU WENT TO SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, YOU'D HAVE MORE SINGLE-MINDED COMMISSIONERS. AN EXAMPLE I'LL THROW OUT TO YOU IS RECENTLY THEY'VE HAD LONG DISCUSSIONS ON WHAT TO DO WITH SOME EXTRA MONEY THAT THEY WANTED TO GIVE TO LIBRARY SERVICES. AND WHICH FACILITIES AND WHICH AREAS OF THE COUNTY WERE GOING TO GET THAT MONEY. IF YOU HAD SEVEN SINGLE-MEMBER OR NINE SINGLE-MEMBER COMMISSIONERS, EACH ONE OF THEM WOULD BE ARGUING FOR AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY COULD GET FOR THEIR DISTRICT. AND YET YOU COULDN'T DO THAT. YOU -- YOU KNOW, NOT PRODUCE ANY GREAT BENEFIT BY GIVING EACH AREA A LITTLE CHUNK OF MONEY. THEY STILL ARE HAVING A DIFFICULT TIME MAKING THAT DECISION, KNOWING THAT THERE'S FOUR PEOPLE ON THAT -- ON THE BOARD CURRENTLY THAT REPRESENT ME AND THAT REPRESENT EVERY MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC. AND THEY STILL HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME MAKING THOSE DECISIONS. AND THEY HAVE TO MAKE THOSE TYPE OF DECISIONS EVERY TIME THEY MEET. SO MY CONCERN IS THAT -- IT WOULD BE EVEN MORE DIFFICULT, AND IT WOULD BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE CONSENSUS ON FUNDING ISSUES BECAUSE EVERYBODY'S GOING TO BE FIGHTING FOR THAT PIECE OF PIE FOR THEIR CITIZENS. SO THAT'S THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH GOING TO ALL SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. I UNDERSTAND IT DOES HAVE SOME BENEFITS, BUT I FEEL THAT THAT NEGATIVE ASPECT OVERWEIGHS THE BENEFITS THAT IT WOULD BE -- THAT WOULD BE PROVIDED. I WOULD LIKE TO CONSIDER, PERHAPS, LOOKING AT THE ELECTED CHAIR, AND I KNOW THAT IT WAS MENTIONED THAT ONE OF THE PROPOSALS WAS THAT IN OUR COUNTYWIDE COMMISSIONERS, WE HAVE GEOGRAPHIC RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS. I AM IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT. AND A COUPLE OF THE PROPOSALS WAS THAT THE ELECTED CHAIRMAN WOULD NOT HAVE THAT RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT. THE -- THE PROBLEM I SEE THAT OCCURS WITH THAT IS NONE OF THE SINGLE-MEMBER COMMISSIONERS COULD BE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, AND I THINK A NUMBER OF THEM WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE SOME SINGLE-MEMBER COMMISSIONERS CURRENTLY, AND I THINK IN THE FUTURE WE'LL HAVE SOME SINGLE-MEMBER COMMISSIONERS -- DISTRICT REPRESENTATIVE COMMISSIONERS THAT WOULD MAKE EXCELLENT CHAIRS. SO PERHAPS -- I DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WOULD WORK -- BUT PERHAPS ANYBODY COULD RUN FOR THAT ELECTED CHAIRMAN POSITION, WHETHER IT BE A SINGLE-MEMBER COMMISSIONER OR AN AT-LARGE COMMISSIONER. AGAIN, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WOULD WORK THAT OUT. BUT IF WE DID AGREE ON AN ELECTED CHAIR, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT OPEN TO ANY COMMISSIONER TO RUN BECAUSE I WOULD HATE TO LIMIT IT TO THREE OR FOUR OF THE COMMISSIONERS THAT SIT ON THE BOARD, WHETHER YOU HAVE SEVEN OR NINE MEMBERS OR 11 MEMBERS OR WHATEVER. SO THAT'S KIND OF MY VIEWPOINT AND MY CONCERNS. THANK YOU. >>DAVID HURLEY: MR. LaBOUR, AND THEN MR. BELTRAN. >>STEVE LaBOUR: FIRST OF ALL, ON STAFF ISSUES, I HAD -- I WORKED IN CITY GOVERNMENT. I WORKED IN THE MAYOR'S OFFICE IN TAMPA, AND I UNDERSTOOD THE CONSTANT CHALLENGE IT WAS OF COUNTY -- OR CITY COUNCIL BELIEVING THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY POWER AND THE MAYOR HAD ALL THE POWER, AND CERTAINLY THE CITY HAS A STRONG MAYOR FORM OF GOVERNMENT. I WILL TELL YOU IT WAS MY EXPERIENCE THAT EVERY DEPARTMENT HEAD, NO MATTER WHETHER THEY REPORTED DIRECTLY TO THE MAYOR AND TECHNICALLY DIDN'T REPORT TO THE COUNCIL REALLY TOOK THEIR JOB PROFESSIONALLY AND SERIOUSLY. I DON'T KNOW ANY TIME THE COUNCIL MEMBER HAD A REQUEST THEY REALLY WANT TO DEFINITELY INTO AN ISSUE THEY DID NOT GET FULL FACTS AND ISSUES. I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY WHEN COUNCIL SAID THEY DIDN'T HAVE STAFF. THE REALITY IS THEY HAD 400 AND SOME PEOPLE AT THEIR DISPOSAL. I THINK AT THE COUNTY COMMISSION, I DIDN'T HEAR -- I DIDN'T HEAR ANY COUNTY COMMISSIONERS SAY HERE THAT I CAN'T DO MY JOB BECAUSE I'M NOT GIVEN THE INFORMATION. THE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR IS HOLDING ALL THE POWER, AND THEY WON'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. I THINK WHAT I HEARD WAS FRUSTRATIONS THAT THEY FEEL THAT THE ISSUES ARE VERY BIG, THE BUDGET IS VERY COMPLICATED, AND THEY FELT TO DO THEIR JOB THOROUGHLY, THEY PERHAPS WANTED MORE HELP IN DIGESTING AND GETTING SOME QUESTIONS ANSWERED. BUT I WOULD SUSPECT THAT THE COUNTY STAFF IS FAIRLY PROFESSIONAL, AND I WOULD SUSPECT, JUST AS YOU USED TO GET CONGRESSIONALS, THAT WHEN THEY KNOW SOMETHING IS FORWARDED FROM A COUNTY COMMISSIONER, I SUSPECT THEY DON'T PUT IT ON THE BOTTOM OF THE PILE. SO I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT'S AN ISSUE. THAT TIES IN TO EXPANDING OF GOVERNMENT. BY ADDING TWO COUNTY COMMISSIONER SEATS, I AM NOT -- I DON'T VIEW IT AS -- AS MAKING GOVERNMENT BIGGER. I LOOK AT IT AS MAKING GOVERNMENT MORE RESPONSIVE AND REPRESENTATIVE. WE HAD -- WE HAD A -- A GROUP STAND BEFORE US OF UNITED NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATIONS IN NORTHWEST -- IN THE CARROLLWOOD AREA, THAT SAID THAT, IN FACT, THEY WANTED SOMETHING LIKE 58 MUNICIPALITIES, THAT THEY WERE SO DISGUSTING ABOUT -- THAT THEY REALLY FELT SO DISCONNECTED TO THEIR GOVERNMENT THAT NO ONE UNDERSTOOD THE ISSUES THAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT. AND WHEN THEY WOULD GO TO THEIR COUNTY COMMISSIONER, THEIR COUNTY COMMISSIONER WAS TOO -- TOO SPREAD OUT AS TO WHAT THE DIFFERENT ISSUES WERE. SO I THINK ADDING TWO COUNTY COMMISSIONERS -- AND I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU. I WRESTLED WITH THAT FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND ASKED A LOT OF PEOPLE ABOUT IT. BUT I THINK THAT THE WAY THIS COUNTY IS GROWING -- AND BY THE WAY, MS. LASHER, I AGREE WITH SEVERAL OF YOUR COMMENTS, BUT I WILL TELL YOU, JUST REMEMBER THE CHEAPEST AND MOST EFFICIENT GOVERNMENT IS A DICTATORSHIP. AND I THINK THAT SEVEN -- I THINK NINE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, THEY BECOME -- OF COURSE THEY'RE PAROCHIAL, BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS -- AND IT HAPPENS IN TALLAHASSEE EVERY SINGLE DAY THAT THEY MEET -- THAT IF I WANT TO GET THE ISSUE FOR MY AREA, GUESS WHAT. I GOT TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH SEVEN OTHER -- YOU KNOW, FIVE OTHER PEOPLE. IF I'M GOING TO GET IT FOR MY DISTRICT. IT'S A MATTER OF COMPROMISE. I'LL BE CANDID. I DON'T KNOW IF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE HAVING WITH OUR PRESENT GOVERNMENT IS STRUCTURE OR WHETHER IT'S PERSONALITY. I DON'T CARE WHETHER THEY DISAGREE WITH ONE ANOTHER, BUT WHAT I HAVEN'T SEEN FROM THIS COUNTY COMMISSION IS AN ABILITY OF WORKING TOGETHER TO MOVE FORWARD, AND THERE IS NO SENSE OF TEAMWORK, AND THAT'S WHAT BOTHERS ME. I THINK THAT'S MORE -- THAT'S MORE LAID AT THE FEET OF THOSE WHO ARE ELECTED AS OPPOSED TO THE NUMBER OF SEATS THAT THERE ARE. BUT I DO THINK THAT WE HEARD VERY STRONGLY FROM OUR CITIZENS THAT CAME DOWN HERE, AND FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, THAT THEY REALLY FELT DISCONNECTED, AND THEY REALLY FEEL AS IF THEY NEED TO HAVE SOMEONE THAT -- THAT CAN BETTER UNDERSTAND THEIR ISSUES. AND I THINK THE ONLY WAY WE CAN GET THERE IS BY ADDING A COUPLE OF SEATS. AND SO I -- I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT IT AS EXPANDING GOVERNMENT. I THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT IT AS BEING MORE RESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT. >>DAVID HURLEY: OR EXPANDING REPRESENTATION. NEXT, MR. BELTRAN, AND THEN MS. WALDRON. >>HENRY BELTRAN: WELL, I THINK THAT IF WE HAVE PART-TIME COMMISSIONERS SUPPOSEDLY, WHY DON'T WE ADD FULL-TIME INSTEAD OF PART-TIME COMMISSIONERS LIKE WE HAVE NOW AND GIVE THEM ENOUGH TIME, AND THAT WAY INSTEAD OF SEVEN, YOU HAVE 14 WORKING -- HALF A DAY, HALF A DAY, THAT WOULD BE 14. AND I THINK THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THE SERVICE IF THE MATTER IS HOW THE COMMUNITY CAN GET IN TOUCH WITH THEM. BECAUSE ONE PERSON IN THE OFFICE AND ONE ASSISTANT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO KEEP TRACK OF EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE COUNTY, HE IS ESPECIALLY A COUNTY GROWING THE WAY THE COUNTY IS GROWING. IF A PROBLEM COMES TO THE COMMISSIONERS, IF THEY WORK TOGETHER FOR THE COMMUNITY, I THINK THEY WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM. NOT JUST THE PROBLEM IN YBOR CITY OR THE PROBLEM IN BRANDON, BUT IT WOULD BE THE PROBLEM IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. I FEEL IF WE WORK TOGETHER, THE PROBLEM CAN BE SOLVED. NOW, THIS DECEIVING IDEA THAT THEY WORK PART-TIME IS NO -- AND THEN WE NEED TO INSTRUCT THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY WHO ARE THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND THE COUNTY COMMISSIONER, BECAUSE YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED HOW FEW PEOPLE KNOW WHO IS THE COUNTY COMMISSIONER THAT REPRESENTS THEM. VERY FEW PEOPLE. AND I FEEL THAT SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE TO LET THE COMMUNITY KNOW IF THEY HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM OR SUCH A DILEMMA, THEY SHOULD GO TO THIS PARTICULAR PLACE OR THIS PARTICULAR AREA OR WHATEVER MAY BE THE CASE. BUT WE DON'T HAVE THAT. TAKE FOR EXAMPLE, BRANDON. YOU GO TO THE COUNTY COMMISSIONER. YOU SAY, WELL I HAVE THIS PROBLEM. BUT HOW MANY PEOPLE KNOW, WHO IS THEIR COUNTY COMMISSIONER? AND I QUESTION THAT BECAUSE NOW, WHEN I RAN FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD, YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED THE THINGS I LEARNED. I LEARNED A GOOD LESSON. MANY PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE SCHOOL BOARD WAS. >>DAVID HURLEY: YOU'RE RIGHT. BY THE WAY, THOSE PART-TIME COUNTY COMMISSIONERS ONLY WORK HALF DAYS, AND IT COMES OUT TO ABOUT 12 HOURS. MS. WALDRON. >>ARLENE WALDRON: WELL, I CERTAINLY THINK ALL THIS CONVERSATION IS GOOD. I DO BELIEVE, THOUGH, THAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS EXERCISE WAS TO NARROW IT DOWN, SO THAT WE WEREN'T KIND OF JUMPING ALL OVER THE PLACE WITH ALL THESE DIFFERENT ISSUES LIKE WE'RE DOING AGAIN TONIGHT. NOT BEING CRITICAL, BUT I REALLY THINK -- AND YOU'RE RIGHT. THERE'S PROBABLY ABOUT NINE BOARD MEMBERS THAT WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM, AND THAT'S OKAY. REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE CRITICAL, BUT I SINCERELY THINK IT'S NOT PREMATURE TO GO AHEAD AND START WITH POSSIBLY CONSIDERING PUTTING ON THE BALLOT THE COUNTY ELECTED CHAIR POSITION. AND WHAT BETTER WAY TO FIND OUT DO WE TALK ABOUT THIS FOR THREE OR FOUR MORE MONTHS, OR DO WE MAKE A DECISION TONIGHT AND THEN TAKE IT IN THE BITE-SIZE PIECES AND KIND OF WORK IT THROUGH. BUT UNTIL WE KNOW WHAT WE WANT AT THE TOP, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO GO ALL OVER THE BOARD. SO, YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO ASK THE BOARD MEMBERS THAT HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO THAT ISSUE IF THEY WOULD CONSIDER -- I KNOW WE'RE ABOUT TO GO ON OUR BREAK AND IT'S KIND OF LIKE AT A FOOTBALL GAME, YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE THAT LAST POINT BEFORE YOU GO INTO THE LOCKER ROOM. IT LOOKS LIKE WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT LAST POINT, THAT LAST DECISION. BUT I WOULD ASK MY FELLOW BOARD MEMBERS IF YOU WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER COMING BACK TO THE MEETING AND DISCUSSING, DO WE WANT TO PUT ON THE BALLOT THE ELECTED CHAIR POSITION, AND THEN WE'LL WORK OUT THE DETAILS LATER. THAT'S MY REQUEST. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU. THAT'S VERY INTERESTING. BY THE WAY, IT'S THAT POINT AT THE ENDS OF THE GAME THAT COUNTS, NOT THE ONE BEFORE YOU GO TO BREAK. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT. >>ARLENE WALDRON: I NEVER DID GET THAT FOOTBALL THING. >>DAVID HURLEY: THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT SOME OTHER PEOPLE NEED TO GET AS WELL. >>GERALD WHITE: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. FIRST OF ALL, I APOLOGIZE FOR NOT PLACING MY IDEAS AND THOUGHTS IN WRITING AND PRESENTING IT PUBLICLY. I HAD NOT CONCLUDED. I CONTINUE TO WRESTLE WITH THIS CONCEPT AND TRYING TO COME DO SOME CONCLUSION. I WANT TO COMMEND THE BOARD MEMBERS THAT HAVE COME FORWARD WITH AN IDEA, SPECIFICALLY MR. LaBOUR. I AM VERY PLEASED AND PROUD OF THE LEADERSHIP THAT YOU CONTINUE TO SHOW ON THIS CHARTER REVIEW BOARD RELATED TO THE DIFFERENT MOTIONS THAT YOU'VE MADE TO MOVE US ALONG AND ADDRESS SOME OF THESE CRITICAL ISSUES THAT WE'RE FACING. MY -- MY THOUGHTS RELATED TO AN ELECTED CHAIR IS TO HAVE AN ELECTED CHAIR, BUT TO HAVE ONE THAT'S ELECTED BY THE BOARD MEMBERS. HAVE THAT PERSON SERVE AS AN ELECTED CHAIR, BUT GIVE THE COMMUNITY A FIRST STEP. AND THAT FIRST STEP WOULD BE TO HAVE THAT PERSON ELECTED CHAIR OF THE BOARD TO A FULL-YEAR TERM BY HIS COLLEAGUES. THAT PERSON'S DUTIES, PRESIDE AT THE MEETINGS, NEGOTIATE ON BEHALF OF THE COUNTY, PRESIDE OVER THE CEREMONIES, INTERPRET THE BOARD POLICIES, APPOINT THE OTHER COUNTY COMMISSIONERS TO AUTHORITIES AND BOARDS, THAT PERSON SERVING IN THE FULL POSITION, FULL-TIME POSITION. I THINK THAT'S A STARTING POINT FOR SUCH A MAJOR, CRITICAL, SERIOUS NEEDED CHANGE FOR THIS COUNTY. I DO BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO EXPAND THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS TO NINE SEATS, AND I THINK MR. LaBOUR, AGAIN, HIT IT ON THE HEAD WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS AND THE AT-LARGE SEATS, AND HAVE THE AT-LARGE COMMISSIONERS REPRESENT GEOGRAPHIC AREAS. AS FAR AS WHERE THOSE LINES WILL BE DRAWN, WE CAN HAVE THE PLANNING COMMISSION PEOPLE COME IN, THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS PEOPLE COME IN AND GIVE US SOME PRELIMINARY INFORMATION, BUT THAT RESPONSIBILITY WOULD BE THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS UNDER THE EXISTING CHARTER AND THE CONSTITUTION AND THE LAWS WE HAVE IN PLACE NOW. THAT WILL BE THEIR JOB TO DRAW. WE PUT THE CONCEPT ON THE FLOOR, THE IDEA ON THE FLOOR, AND THEY DO THE REST. RELATED TO THE SCHOOL BOARD AND THEIR EXISTING NEW -- EXISTING DISTRICTS. YOU KNOW, THEY PERFORM A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TASK THAN WHAT THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS DO. AND THE TYPE OF REPRESENTATION IS DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW. THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS IS PROVIDING SERVICES, AND IT'S JUST A TOTALLY DIFFERENT KIND OF DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITY, AND THAT -- THAT SAME THOUGHT, AS WELL, FOR THE CONGRESSMEN. IT'S JUST A TOTAL DIFFERENT TYPE OF JOB, AND SO IT'S KIND OF DIFFICULT TO PUT THEM ALL IN THE SAME BOAT. YOU CAN IN SOME INSTANCES, BUT OVERALL, I THINK THEY NEED TO BE JUDGED IN THEIR OWN PARTICULAR ENVIRONMENT. TERM LIMITS ARE STILL AN IMPORTANT ISSUE. WE NEED TO DECIDE THAT. I AM CONCERNED IF THE CITY OF TAMPA AND THE MAYOR REMOVE TERM LIMITS, HOW IS THAT GOING TO AFFECT THE ABILITY OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS TO HAVE GOOD, STRONG LEADERSHIP WHEN THE CITY WOULD KNOW, HEY, THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE TERM LIMITED OUT, AND WE CAN CONTINUE ON. I THINK THAT -- THAT'S A QUESTION THAT WE NEED TO ANSWER. I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR OUR ENTIRE COMMUNITY. I'LL STOP RIGHT THERE FOR NOW. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. MS. WILLIAMS, MR. AMBLER, THEN WE'LL TAKE A BREAK, AND AS SOON AS WE COME BACK FROM BREAK, MR. BALES WILL SPEAK. I KNOW THAT YOU'LL BE EXCITED TO GET BACK ON TIME FOR THAT. >> I'LL TALK AFTER MR. BALES. >>DEE WILLIAMS: I DIDN'T WRITE MINE DOWN BECAUSE I THOUGHT I MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR TWO WEEKS AGO THAT I WAS SATISFIED WITH WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW EXCEPT I THINK IT NEEDS SOME REFINING. I DO OBJECT TO SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS BECAUSE I THINK YOU HAVE A TENDENCY TO BUILD FIEFDOMS. THEY'LL ALL BE FIGHTING FOR THEIR PIECE OF THE PIE. THE COMPLAINT WE HEAR, AT LEAST THE LEGISLATURE, WE HAVE NOBODY TO GO TO. I THOUGHT THAT'S WHAT WE ELECTED A CHAIRMAN TO DO, TO BE THE SPOKESMAN FOR THE COUNTY COMMISSION, SO I CAN'T SEE THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ANYBODY TO GO TO BECAUSE WHEN THE MAJORITY OF THIS COMMISSION ELECTS THAT PERSON CHAIR, I WOULD THINK THEY ALSO GAVE HE OR SHE THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING THEIR SPOKESMAN. SO I -- I FAIL SO SEE -- I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THAT. ONE THING I'VE ALWAYS SAID THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PART TIME, FULL TIME, AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT'S A FULL-TIME POSITION AND THEN SOME. I'VE ALWAYS SAID THESE COMMISSIONERS HAVE TO SERVE ON ENTIRELY TOO MANY BOARDS. THERE OUGHT TO BE SOME WAY THEY CAN HAVE REPRESENTATION ON THESE BOARDS WITHOUT HAVING TO PHYSICALLY SIT ON THEM THEMSELVES. I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY SPREAD THEMSELVES THAT THIN MYSELF. BUT I -- I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THE CHAIRMAN MIGHT SERVE FOR TWO YEARS INSTEAD OF ROTATING IT AROUND FOR ONE YEAR LIKE THEY DO BECAUSE EVERY TWO YEARS, YOU ARE GOING TO GET A CHANGE IN YOUR AT-LARGE REPRESENTATION, SO I -- I DO THINK THAT HAVING THEM SERVE FOR TWO YEARS IS A GOOD IDEA, AND MORE IF THEIR BUDDIES WANT TO ELECT THEM, BUT AT LEAST FOR TWO YEARS. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. MR. AMBLER. >>KEVIN AMBLER: I'LL BE REAL BRIEF. I WAS THROWING OUT IDEAS BEFORE. I WASN'T REALLY EXPRESSING MY OPINION. BUT I WAS ONE OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS THAT DIDN'T PUT MY IDEAS IN WRITING BECAUSE I, TOO, LIKE MR. WHITE, HAVE BEEN WRESTLING WITH THE VARIOUS DIRECTIONS I WANTED TO GO, AND I WASN'T PREPARED TO COMMIT THOSE YET TO ONE PROPOSAL OR ANOTHER, BUT I AM PREPARED TO, I THINK, STATE WHAT THAT OPINION IS BECAUSE I WRESTLED WITH IT LONG ENOUGH, AND WE NEED TO GO SOMEWHERE WITH IT. MY PARTICULAR VIEWPOINT IS THAT WE GO TO A NINE-MEMBER COMMISSION WITH FIVE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, FOUR REGIONAL DISTRICTS. THAT ENABLES EACH CITIZEN STILL TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR A MAJORITY MEMBER -- A MAJORITY OF THE COMMISSION. SO YOU DO NOT -- YOU ARE NOT DILUTING THE POWER OF ANY ONE GROUP OR ANY DISTRICT BY JUST GOING TO ALL SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, WHICH WOULD, IN FACT, HAPPEN IF WE ABANDONED THE PRESENT SYSTEM. SO THAT'S A FIVE-FOUR, SINGLE, REGIONAL RESPECTIVELY. I'M IN FAVOR OF A BOARD-ELECTED CHAIR, NOT A CITIZEN-ELECTED CHAIR. I'M IN FAVOR OF THAT ELECTED CHAIR SERVING FOR TWO YEARS, SO I WOULD AGREE WITH DEE WILLIAMS. I DON'T THINK -- JUST BY THE TIME YOU ARE FIGURING OUT WHAT THE JOB IS ALL ABOUT AND GETTING THAT RESPECTABILITY AND GETTING TO KNOW THE FOLKS THAT YOU NEED TO CONTACT AS A CHAIR, YOU ARE OUT OF OFFICE. NOW, YOU CAN ALWAYS BE RE-ELECTED, I SUPPOSE, BY YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS, BUT I THINK, REALLY, TO DO A DECENT JOB, YOU NEED TO BE IN THERE FOR TWO YEARS. IF YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB, EVERYBODY LOVES YOUR LEADERSHIP, YOU CAN BE RE-ELECTED BY YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS. I AM AGAINST THE IDEA, WHETHER A BOARD-ELECTED CHAIR OR CITIZEN-ELECTED CHAIR, THE CHAIR OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS APPOINTING OTHER COMMISSIONERS, HAVING THE SOLE AUTHORITY TO APPOINT OTHER COMMISSIONERS TO THE BOARDS AND AUTHORITIES, AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY. AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE TO HAVE A PARTISAN FORM OF COMMISSION, DEPENDING ON WHAT PARTY, PARTICULAR PARTY IS IN POWER, IF YOU ENTRUST THAT TO THE ONE PERSON ACTING AS CHAIR, YOU CAN GOING TO HAVE FAVORITISM OR AT LEAST ACCUSATIONS OF FAVORTISM OR ACCUSATIONS OF AN APPEARANCE OF FAVORTISM, AND I THINK YOU PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY OF THE WHOLE BOARD WHEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE A VOTE OF AT LEAST A MAJORITY TO GET THOSE APPOINTMENTS. BY THE SAME TOKEN, I THINK IN TERMS OF GETTING PEOPLE TO FEEL THAT THE COMMISSIONERS ARE ALL RESPONSIVE TO THEM, THERE NEEDS TO BE A MANDATORY ROTATION SYSTEM ON THOSE BOARDS AND AUTHORITIES. OKAY? IF I WERE SERVING ON THE COUNTY COMMISSION, I WOULD WANT, DURING MY TERM, TO KNOW THAT I HAVE ROTATED ON SEVERAL DIFFERENT BOARD, BECAUSE ONLY THEN DO YOU REALLY GET THE TRUE FLAVOR FOR WHAT'S GOING ON. NOT JUST FROM A REPORT BACK. AND I THINK THAT'S HOW YOU'RE GOING TO GET, YOU KNOW, INTO THE DEVIL OF THE DETAILS, BY GETTING COMMISSIONERS REQUIRED TO SERVE, AND BY REQUIRING THOSE ROTATIONS, YOU ARE GOING TO ELIMINATE SOME OF THE POLITICAL UNDERPINNINGS THAT GO WITH THOSE APPOINTMENTS AS WELL. SO BOTTOM LINE IS I DON'T THINK WE NEED AN ELECTED MAYOR OR ELECTED CHAIR, CITIZEN-ELECTED CHAIR. I THINK YOU CAN DO WITH WHAT WE HAVE. I THINK YOU ADDRESSED THE CONCERNS OF THE ENLARGED POPULATION AND DETACHMENT OF OUR COMMISSION BECAUSE OF THE SIZE OF DISTRICTS BY GOING TO A FIVE-FOUR PLAN WITH FIVE SINGLE DISTRICTS AND FOUR REGIONAL, AND YOU KNOW, THE REGIONAL, WE CAN GET INTO THOSE DETAILS IF THAT'S THE CONCEPT FOLKS LIKE, BUT I THINK THERE ARE A VARIETY OF WAYS OF DOING THE REGIONS IN A VERY FAIR AND EQUITABLE MANNER, BUT IT CERTAINLY ADDRESSES THE CONCERN WE'VE HAD THAT YOU HAVE MULTIPLE COMMISSIONERS FROM ONE -- YOU KNOW, LIKE NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBORS, AND OTHER AREAS OF THE COUNTY THAT AREN'T REPRESENTED. AND I THINK THAT THE REASON I OPPOSE THE COUNTY-ELECTED CHAIR OR MAYOR IS THAT AT THE COUNTY LEVEL, UNLIKE THE CITY LEVEL, I JUST FEEL THAT BY -- I JUST -- IF YOU LOOK AT THE REAL HISTORY OF TAMPA, OKAY, LET'S PLUG THIS OUT OF THE ABSTRACT, THEORETICAL, ACADEMIC ENVIRONMENT AND PUT THIS INTO THE REALITY OF HOW TAMPA REALLY OPERATES. I WOULD BE VERY CONCERNED IF SOMEONE WHO HAS LIVED FOR MY ENTIRE TIME IN THIS COUNTY IN NORTH TAMPA OF HAVING AN ELECTED MAYOR SYSTEM THAT'S GOING TO RESULT IN SOMEBODY FROM SOUTH TAMPA RUNNING THIS COMMUNITY FOREVER. I MEAN, THAT'S WHERE THE POWER HAS BEEN. IT'S CONCENTRATED. IT'S THE GOOD OL' BOY SYSTEM. AT LEAST THAT'S THE PERCEPTION OF THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOKs, WHICH IS NORTH OF KENNEDY, AS OPPOSED TO THE SOKs, WHICH ARE SOUTH OF KENNEDYS. I DON'T THINK WE WANT THAT EVEN AS A PERCEPTION IN OUR LEADERSHIP. BY GOING TO THIS FIVE-FOUR SYSTEM THAT I'VE DESCRIBED WITH THE BOARD-APPOINTED CHAIR, I THINK YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH ALL YOUR OBJECTIVES, AND YOU HAVEN'T HAD TO ADD A TIER OF GOVERNMENT AND ALL THE COSTS ATTENDED TO IT. THAT'S MY VIEW. I CAN PUT IT IN WRITING NOW IF YOU LIKE. >>DAVID HURLEY: AFTER MR. AMBLER'S VIEW, WE'LL TAKE OUR BREAK. WE'VE ALWAYS SAID A TEN-MINUTE BREAK, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN 15. LET'S SAY 15 AND STICK TO IT. WE'LL START AGAIN AT 5 MINUTES TO 8. THE BOARD IS IN RECESS. [ INAUDIBLE ] >>DAVID HURLEY: -- NEXT UP IS MR. BALES AND THEN BALLARD AND MR. HURLEY. ANYBODY ELSE HAS TO PUT THEIR HANDS UP. >> MR. CHAIR, I WANT TO FIRST THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO GO AFTER THE BREAK. IT GAVE ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO TELL MY WIFE THAT I WAS ACCUSED OF NOT SPEAKING THAT MUCH. >>DAVID HURLEY: THAT IS TRUE. YOU WERE ACCUSED OF THAT. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: I BEG YOUR PARDON. I'M SO SORRY. >>JOHN BALES: THE REASON THAT MANY TIMES HAVE ALREADY AGREED TO SOMEBODY WHO HAS SPOKEN, AND SO I DON'T SAY ANYTHING BECAUSE I RESPECT THIS GROUP ENOUGH -- AS A MATTER OF FACT, I RESPECT THIS GROUP VERY MUCH TO HAVE AS MUCH INTELLIGENCE OR MORE THAN I DO, AND I DON'T LIKE TO GANG UP AND SAY I AGREE, AND I AGREE. IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR THOSE WHO SPEAK AGAINST IT TO DO SO. I WANT TO STAY OUT OF IT, AND LET PEOPLE SPEAK. TO GIVE A TRUISM. A TRUE STRENGTH IS TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE WHEN IT'S TIME TO CHANGE. AND I'VE ALWAYS ADMIRED PEOPLE THAT WERE ABLE TO DO THAT. I'M NOT SUCCESSFUL ALL THE TIME, BUT I TRIED. WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM THIS GROUP IS THAT THERE'S A NEED FOR A CHANGE. NOT IN SO MANY WORDS, BUT EVERYBODY SORT OF SAID A CHANGE. IN FACT, EVERYONE IN HERE SUPPORTS HAVING AN ELECTED CHAIR. EVERYONE HAS SAID WE SHOULD HAVE AN ELECTED CHAIR. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS, SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT THE VOTERS SHOULD DECIDE WHO THE ELECTED CHAIR IS, AND OTHERS SAY THAT SHOULD BE DECIDED BY THE BOARD. WELL, I'M A BELIEVER IN THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE, AND I BELIEVE THE PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE WHO THE CHAIR IS, NOT THE BOARD. I SOMETIMES WONDER THAT PERSONS SITTING HERE OR PERSONS OUTSIDE OR PERSONS WHOEVER ARE WORRIED ABOUT HAVING A CHAIR ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE BECAUSE IT WILL TAKE AWAY SOME OF THEIR POWER. I'M CONVINCED IF WE HAD A CHAIR ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE, THE THE COMMISSIONERS, THE REST OF THEM, WOULD HAVE JUST AS MUCH POWER AS THEY ALWAYS DID, AS HAVE BEEN SAID BY MANY PEOPLE, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. MAKE SURE IT'S TAKEN CARE OF. SO WHEN WE SIT AROUND HERE AND DISCUSS IT, LET'S BE FAIR TO EACH OTHER. IF SOMEBODY GETS UP HERE AND SAY I'M NOT FOR AN ELECTED CHAIR. OKAY, THAT'S DIFFERENT. BUT IF THEY SAY THEY ARE FOR AN ELECTED CHAIR, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE FACT OF WHETHER IT'S ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE OR BY THE BOARD MEMBERS. AND I'M FOR THE PEOPLE. THE OTHER ISSUE IS THE NINE VERSUS THE SEVEN. I AM A BELIEVER THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE LEADERS, AND THERE'S BEEN SOME LEADERS IN THIS GROUP, AND I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE IT. AND I BELIEVE THAT THE COMMISSION -- THE COMMISSIONERS ARE LEADERS, AND THEY HAVE DONE -- OR ATTEMPT TO DO THE BEST JOB THEY CAN. AND I ALSO BELIEVE THAT HAVING TOO MANY CAN BE A PROBLEM. ON THE OTHER HAND, THOUGH, I AGREE WITH MR. WHITE AND OTHERS THAT WE PROBABLY NEED TO HAVE THE PEOPLE BETTER REPRESENTED, AND THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN BETTER REPRESENT THE PEOPLE IS THAT THEY ARE CLOSER TO THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS. THE ONLY WAY THEY ARE CLOSER TO THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS IF THEY ARE NOT REPRESENTING AS MANY PEOPLE. SO I'M A BELIEVER IN HAVING NINE COMMISSIONERS. ONCE AGAIN, IT'S GETTING BACK TO THE PEOPLE. IT'S GIVING THE PEOPLE THE OPPORTUNITY. I THINK HIGHLY OF MR. AMBLER, BUT TO SAY THAT WE WOULD HAVE A BIGGER BUREAUCRACY OR MORE STAFF CONCERNS ME. BECAUSE ONE THING I AM AGAINST IS MORE BUREAUCRACY AND MORE STAFF MEMBERS CREATES MORE BUREAUCRACY. I WOULD RATHER HAVE THESE PEOPLE ELECTED, GIVE VARIOUS PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY, WHETHER IT'S GEOGRAPHIC, WHETHER IT'S RACE, WHATEVER IT IS, WE SHOULD LET THEM BE REPRESENTED AND I THINK THAT'S DONE BY GOING TO THE NINE COMMISSIONERS. I ALSO BELIEVE, WHAT I'VE HEARD TODAY, ABOUT WE HAVE EIGHT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS VERSUS ONE AT-LARGE. I'M INCLINED TO, ONCE AGAIN, AGREE WITH MR. LaBOUR. YOU NOTICE, I'M SORT OF SUPPORTING YOU ALL THE WAY DOWN. WHAT HE WAS SUGGESTING, FIVE ELECTED SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS WITH FOUR ELECTED AT-LARGE, WITH THREE OF THOSE BEING FROM GEOGRAPHIC RESIDENCIES TO ADDRESS -- BY THE WAY I SUPPORT THAT FROM WHAT I HEARD MS. WILLIAMS SAY. I DON'T THINK THEY FEEL REPRESENTED WELL ENOUGH, AND THAT'S NOT RIGHT. I THINK WE SHOULD BREAK UP THE AT-LARGE AND MAKE IT GEOGRAPHICAL AND THAT WILL BE FIGURED OUT. WE WILL BE ABLE TO DO THAT. SO, TO RECAP, I'M ALMOST SUPPORTING EVERYTHING THAT MR. LaBOUR SAYS. NOW, SOME OF THE DETAILS I DON'T, BUT OVERALL, I BELIEVE WE SHOULD HAVE AN ELECTED CHAIR, MAYOR, WHATEVER WORD YOU WANT TO USE, BUT I WANT EVERYBODY TO THINK LONG AND HARD WHETHER THEY SUPPORT PEOPLE DECIDING WHO OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE OR BOARD MEMBERS DECIDING WHO OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE, AND I BELIEVE WE SHOULD HAVE THE PEOPLE. ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE AND SHOULD HAVE THE NINE-PERSON COMMISSION WITH FIVE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, FOUR AT-LARGE WITH ONE OF THOSE BEING COUNTY MAYOR AND A COUNTY MAYOR SHOULD BE FROM ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTY AND ADDRESSES AN ISSUE I HEARD EARLIER. MAYBE SOME OF THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS WILL WANT TO BE CHAIR. GREAT, THEY CAN BE FROM ANYWHERE AROUND THE COUNTY AND RUN FOR THAT POSITION. THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO VOICE THEIR VIEW AND LET THE VOTERS VOTE FOR THEM. WHY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE IDEA OF AN ELECTED CHAIR IS BECAUSE IT GIVES A PERSON AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A VISION, EXPRESS IT, AND HAVE PEOPLE VOTE FOR IT. AND MAYBE WE'LL BE ABLE TO MOVE A LITTLE QUICKER, A LITTLE BETTER, A LITTLE MORE DECISIVE, AND MAYBE A LITTLE MORE EFFECTIVELY. ON THE PARTISAN ISSUE, I DON'T HAVE AN OPINION YET. SORRY. >>DAVID HURLEY: THANK YOU, MR. BALES, THAT WAS WORTH WAITING FOR. MR. BALLARD. >>TERRY BALLARD: THANK YOU. REALLY, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO GET DOWN TO IS A BETTER REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE. NOW HOW DO WE GET TO THAT POINT? NOW, I'VE LISTENED TO SEVERAL OF THEM, INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, ADDING TO THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS' ASSISTANTS. AND IN THINKING OF THAT, I BELIEVE IF THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WANTED TO INCREASE THEIR STAFF, THEY CAN DO IT BY RESOLUTION, YOU KNOW. THE -- ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS, SHOULD WE GET IN THAT MUCH DETAIL TELLING THEM HOW TO DO IT. AND THAT'S JUST MY THOUGHTS ON THAT AND LOOKING AT IT. WE'RE LOOKING AT 4-3, WHICH, YOU KNOW, IF WE GET DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL DISTRICTS, AND BACK TO WHY THE 4-3 WAS CREATED, THAT THE FOUR DISTRICTS THAT, AS A VOTER, I'VE ELECTED A MAJORITY OF THEM, WHICH IS FOUR. THAT'S THE RATIONALE FROM IT, AND IT CARRIES THROUGH WITH MR. LaBOUR'S PLAN. BUT THEN YOU CAN GET IN -- WILL THEY BE BETTER REPRESENTED BY GOING TO THE 6-1, IF YOU GO TO THE ELECTED OFFICIALS, WHETHER YOU HAVE SIX DISTRICTS OUT THERE THAT WOULD ADD TWO MORE DISTRICTS JUST TO GIVE BETTER REPRESENTATION, OR SHOULD WE GO TO, LIKE, THE FLORIDA LEGISLATURE WHERE THEY HAVE ALL THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM ALL OVER THE STATE, AND THEY SELECT THEIR SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE. WHICH WE ARE GOING TO HAVE THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IN PLANT CITY I THINK IN TWO YEARS. AND FOR WHATEVER REASON. THEN, INCREASING THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, IN THE 5-4, WHERE WE CAN GO TO AN 8-1 OR NINE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS OR WHATEVER AND TRYING TO -- BY ADDING TWO, WE'RE REALLY GETTING JUST ONE MORE DISTRICT, YOU KNOW, IN SPLITTING DOWN INSTEAD OF FOUR, YOU GET FIVE. AND THEN GO AND HAVE THE OVERLAP -- IF WE GO TO THE AT-LARGE AND HAVING DISTRICTS FOR THEM AND IT'S GOING TO GIVE SOME OVERLAP OUT THERE. SO GETTING THE RIGHT REPRESENTATION. AND MY QUESTION IS, WHO DRAWS THE DISTRICT LINES? YOU KNOW, THE SOUTH HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY WANTS MORE REPRESENTATION. I'M SURE EASTERN HILLSBOROUGH WANTS MORE, BUT HOW DO YOU SPLIT IT UP, AND, YOU KNOW, I RECKON THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS OR THE PLANNING COMMISSION, I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHO DRAWS THE LINE. I HEARD MR. MARKER FROM THE COUNTY SAY HE DREW THE LINES OVER THERE FOR THEIR DISTRICTS. >>GERALD WHITE: MR. CHAIRMAN, CAN WE GET MARY HELEN TO RESPOND TO THAT BECAUSE I THINK THAT IS AN IMPORTANT PART IF SHE CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: FOR THE RECORD, MARY HELEN CAMPBELL. AS THE CHARTER IS CURRENTLY WRITTEN, THE BOARD SHALL REAPPORTION. THE BOARD USES AS A PRACTICAL MATTER THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS OFFICE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE DISTRICT POPULATION ARE NEARLY AS EQUAL AS POSSIBLE. THIS BOARD WOULD NOT BE CALLED ON TO ACTUALLY DRAW THE LINES. WHAT YOU WOULD DO IS -- IS PUT IN THE CHARTER WHATEVER DISTRICTING PLAN AND THE NUMBER OF DISTRICTS THAT YOU WANT TO, YOU KNOW, PUT ON THE BALLOT IF IT PASSES. WE TAKE THAT DISTRICT SCHEME, AND THEN WE DO THE DRAWING OF POPULATION LINES USING THE LATEST CENSUS FIGURES AND OTHER TOOLS. SO IT WOULD NOT BE THIS BOARD THAT WOULD HAVE TO TAKE A MAP OF HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY AND CARVE THEM OUT. >>TERRY BALLARD: SO THE ANSWER IS, THE COUNTY COMMISSION, WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTION AND PLANNING COMMISSION. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: RIGHT. THAT'S THE WAY IT'S BEEN DONE IN THE PAST. >>TERRY BALLARD: OKAY. WELL, THAT ANSWERS THAT QUESTION THEN. ONE OTHER THING. IN LOOKING AT -- THE CHARTER OF PLANNING COMMISSION HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE 1920 OR THE '30s, EARLY '30s, SO IT'S BEEN AROUND A WHILE. ORIGINALLY IT CAME OUT WITH THE CHAIRMAN OR THE MAYOR-COMMISSIONER BEING SELECTED BY THE COMMISSION. THEN IT WAS CHANGED FOR ABOUT PROBABLY 30 OR 40 YEARS, AND NOW IT'S BACK TO WHETHER IT WAS ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE AND IT'S BACK TO NOW ELECTED BY THE COMMISSION AGAIN, WHICH CHANGED ABOUT FIVE OR SEVEN YEARS AGO, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO THAT'S HOW THEY'RE OPERATING. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I SEE IS THAT THE CHAIRMAN REALLY, WITH EVERYTHING SHE HAS TO DO OR HE HAS TO DO, HAS A FULL PLATE TO OPERATE. SO, YOU KNOW, IF THEY'RE OUT REPRESENTING A DISTRICT, IT'S DIFFICULT FOR THE -- FOR WHOEVER THE CHAIRMAN IS TO REPRESENT THEIR PEOPLE IN TRYING TO REPRESENT THE COUNTY AS A WHOLE. I SEE THAT AS A PROBLEM, BUT I DON'T HAVE A SOLUTION TO IT. YOU KNOW, IF IT'S ONE -- ONE, TWO, THREE, OR FOUR, THEY CAN'T ADEQUATELY REPRESENT THEIR DISTRICT DOING EVERYTHING ELSE THEY HAVE GOT TO DO. RIGHT NOW, I'M LOOKING AT THE 4-3, BUT MY MIND IS OPEN, AND I LIKE IT ELECTED BY THE COMMISSION THERE, THE CHAIRMAN ELECTED BY THE COMMISSION. BUT I'M STILL -- YOU KNOW AND I BELIEVE THAT NONPARTISAN POLITICS WOULD SOLVE A LOT OF PROBLEMS. BUT I'M STILL OPEN TO THAT. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. I HAD MY NAME DOWN NEXT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MS. TUTTLE MENTIONED WAS WE HAVE A CHAIRMAN, AND THAT'S THE PERSON THEY SHOULD BE TALKING TO. I BELIEVE IT WAS YOU WHO SAID THAT. FROM THE LEGISLATURE'S PERSPECTIVE, SINCE THE CHAIRMAN IS ELECTED BY THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS, HE DOES NOT HAVE A MANDATE FROM THE PEOPLE, THERE'S NO WAY TO GET THE MANDATE FROM THE PEOPLE. I LIKE WHAT MR. BALES SAID IF A PERSON HAD A VISION AND CAN ARTICULATE THAT VISION AND GIVE IT TO THE PEOPLE AND BE ELECTED THE CHAIRMAN FOR A FOUR-YEAR TERM, THEN THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY, THIS IS THE VISION WE HAVE, AND I THINK THE LEGISLATURE VERY OBVIOUSLY WOULD RECOGNIZE THAT PERSON AS THE -- AS HAVING THAT MANDATE. AND I THINK THAT WILL GIVE US A -- MORE STRENGTH AT THAT POINT. I PERSONALLY AM NOT THRILLED WITH THE WAY IT'S WORKED AT THIS POINT, AND I HADN'T THOUGHT OF WHAT YOU JUST MENTIONED ABOUT THE DISTRICT COMMISSIONER SERVING AS CHAIRMAN WOULD HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME REPRESENTING THAT DISTRICT AND STILL BEING THE CHAIRMAN COUNTYWIDE. OF COURSE, EVERY COMMISSIONER VOTES ON EVERY ISSUE. AND THAT'S WHY I WENT TO THE 8-1, BECAUSE MY OTHER OPTION TO THAT WOULD BE THAT EVERYBODY RUNS COUNTYWIDE, BECAUSE FRANKLY, EVERY COMMISSIONER VOTES ON EVERY ISSUE. WHETHER YOU LIVE IN DISTRICT 4, A COMMISSIONER VOTES ON EVERY ISSUE FOR THE WHOLE COUNTY, AS DOES 1, 2, AND 3. THEY ARE ALL AT-LARGE COMMISSIONERS WHEN IT COMES TO VOTING. SO THAT'S A PERSPECTIVE OF MINE. AND JUST THOUGHT I WOULD SHARE THAT. MS. WALDRON AND THEN MS. TUTTLE >>ARLENE WALDRON: I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS AND THEN I'LL ADDRESS THEM TO THE SHARE. CURRENTLY THE BOARD ELECTS THE CHAIRPERSON, CORRECT? >>DAVID HURLEY: CORRECT >>ARLENE WALDRON: IF WE DECIDE TO STAY WITH THAT ROUTE, THAT WOULD NOT REQUIRE A CHARTER CHANGE. THANK YOU FOR CLARIFYING THE QUESTION OF WHO ACTUALLY DRAWS THE DISTRICT. THAT HELPED ME A LOT. I THINK WE DISCOVERED THAT THE STAFF OF THE BOARD IS NOT A CHARTER ISSUE EITHER. SO WE REALLY DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THAT EITHER BECAUSE WE ALL AGREE TO THAT. AS FAR AS -- I THINK I UNDERSTAND THAT THE DISTRICTS HAVE TO BE AS EQUAL AS POSSIBLE WITHIN THAT 1% OR 3%. IF WE GO TO THE FIVE SINGLE DISTRICTS WE ARE LOOKING AT ROUGHLY 20,000 A PIECE. WE TALK ABOUT THAT MAGIC NUMBER THAT'S GOING TO GIVE US THAT PROPER REPRESENTATION. WAS THAT NUMBER 9? >>DAVID HURLEY: I BELIEVE -- AND I WAS INFORMED THAT THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF DISTRICTS YOU CAN HAVE TO COME OUT WITH A DISTRICT LIKELY TO ELECT A MINORITY CANDIDATE WAS 5. THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE BETTER WITH NUMBERS THAN I AM THAT CAN COME UP WITH THAT, BUT THAT'S WHAT I WAS TOLD. I'VE GOTTEN SEVERAL E-MAILS THIS WEEK FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLES, AND THAT WAS IN ONE OF THOSE THINGS. I THINK THAT THE THING THAT FRIGHTENS ME AND THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, I THINK THAT APRIL WAS WHEN WE WERE SUPPOSED TO GET THE INFORMATION FROM THE CENSUS, THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TOLD. AT THAT POINT, IF WE DID NOT HAVE A DISTRICT -- IF IT COULD NOT BE APPORTIONED SO THERE WAS A GOOD LIKELIHOOD OF HAVING A MINORITY MEMBER ELECTED TO THE COMMISSION, THEN MY CONCERN -- I HAD ASKED MARY HELEN TO RESEARCH THIS AND MAYBE SHE CAN COME UP AND TELL US WHAT SHE FOUND. THERE IS A LIKELIHOOD THE JUSTICE CAN COME IN AND SAY IT'S GOT TO CHANGE AND THE COUNTY COMMISSION PUTTING FORTH WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO PUT TO DO A CHARTER CHANGE AND EVEN WORSE YET, A FEDERAL JUDGE DECIDING HOW WE WERE GOING TO APPORTION OUR COUNTY. TO SAY THAT A FEDERAL JUDGE WOULDN'T DO IT -- WHEN I WAS A YOUNG MAN I NEVER HEARD OF A FEDERAL JUDGE HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH SCHOOLS. AND NOW THAT I'VE GOTTEN OUT OF SCHOOLS, IT SEEMS THAT THE FEDERAL JUDGE RUN ALL THE SCHOOLS. I WOULD NOT HOLD ANYTHING BACK FROM THE FEDERAL JUDGE. >>ARLENE WALDRON: SO THE ANSWER WAS 5? >>DAVID HURLEY: THAT WAS SOMETHING I WAS TOLD. NOT SOMETHING I VERIFIED. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: IF YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO CLARIFY THAT. I HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD OR HEARD THAT THERE IS SOME MAGIC NUMBER DISTRICT THAT YOU WOULD HAVE IT ACHIEVE. TO GET PRE-CLEARANCE WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DOES IS TO LOOK AT THE CHANGE YOU ARE PROPOSING AND COMPARE IT TO WHAT YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY. AND IF THE MINORITY DISTRICTS ARE IN A WORSE POSITION, AND I'M KIND OF PARAPHRASING IT, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT IN THE FEDERAL LAW THAT YOU HAVE A DISTRICT THAT WOULD -- YOU WOULD BE ASSURED TO HAVE A MINORITY REPRESENTATIVE. YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN HAVE ANYBODY RUNNING FOR PUBLIC OFFICE FROM A MINORITY DISTRICT, AND THERE'S NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THAT. I -- I DON'T KNOW -- I WOULD THINK THAT WE CAN DRAW THE SAME SEVEN -- 3-4 SPLIT THAT WE HAVE NOW AND GET PRE-CLEARANCE. I THINK WE WILL STRIVE TO DO THAT. I DON'T KNOW IF WE GO TO 5. BUT IN EITHER WAY, THAT'S WHAT JUSTICE WILL LOOK AT. IT'S EASIER FOR ME TO ADDRESS THAT ONCE YOU COME UP WITH A PLAN YOU WANT TO DO, AND THEN WE CAN WORK WITH IT FROM THERE. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. MS. MERRITT, I ALSO ASKED, DID YOU GET WITH JIM HOSTLER REGARDING THAT? BECAUSE -- AFTER I GOT THAT INFORMATION, I WAS KIND OF CONCERNED WITH THAT MYSELF. >>BARBARA MERRITT: THEY ARE WORKING ON SOME -- THEY HAVE SOME NUMBERS IN AND BEFORE IT CAME BACK BEFORE THE BOARD, WANTED TO GET A BETTER FEEL WITH THE COUNTY ATTORNEY. WE ARE FORTUNATE BECAUSE THE COUNTY ATTORNEY AND THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS AND MR. HOSTLER ARE ON THE SAME TEAM WITH THE CENSUS. IN YOUR PACKET, THERE WAS AN UPDATE ON THE CENSUS IN THE PAPER. MR. TINKLER WAS QUOTED IN THERE. AS SOON AS THEY HAVE SOME MORE -- SOME BETTER FIGURES, THEY WILL GET BACK WITH US. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. THAT'S A DEFINITE MAYBE THEN. >>ARLENE WALDRON: THAT'S GOOD. TWO OTHER COMMENTS QUICKLY. I DO APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT THE SINGLE DISTRICT, THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT, ABOUT BEING ELECTED. I'M GOING TO BE BOLD, AND FOR PURPOSES OF SPEAKING TO ONE ISSUE, AND IN THE SPIRIT OF DECISION-MAKING, I MAKE A MOTION TO PLACE ON THE BALLOT THE ELECTED COUNTY CHAIRPERSON POSITION WITH THE DUTIES TO BE DEFINED. >> SECOND. >>DAVID HURLEY: MOVED AND SECONDED THAT WE PLACE ON THE BALLOT THE ELECTED COUNTY CHAIRPERSON WITH THE DUTIES TO BE DEFINED LATER. JUST AS A CHANCE, IS THERE ANY DISCUSSION ON THAT MOTION? MS. TUTTLE AND MR. AMBLER. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: VERY BRIEFLY. IT GOES TO THE QUESTION PEOPLE SEEM TO BE HAVING ABOUT LIVING IN A DISTRICT AND BEING THE ELECTED CHAIR. IF I'M GOING TO RUN FOR THE COUNTY COMMISSION, I'M EITHER GOING TO RUN FROM AN AT-LARGE, FOR A DISTRICT SEAT, OR FOR THE COUNTY CHAIR. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE I LIVE IF WE WRITE THAT IN. SO THAT WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. I THINK YOU'RE CONFUSING A LOT OF THINGS. YOU HAD THAT CONCERN, TOO, DAVID. >>DAVID HURLEY: THE COUNTY CHAIR COULD LIVE ANYWHERE IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: THAT DOES NOT LIMIT OR PROHIBIT THEM FROM LIVING IN ANY DISTRICT. >>DAVID HURLEY: HOW LONG WAS ELLSWORTH SIMMONS CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNTY COMMISSION? >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: 17 YEARS. >>DAVID HURLEY: ABOUT AS FAR FROM A SOUTH TAMPA ICON AS YOU CAN POSSIBLY GET. >>KEVIN AMBLER: I WOULD LIKE A CLARIFICATION OF THE MOTION AND FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SPOKE IN FAVOR OF A COUNTY CHAIR. IS THIS A POSITION THAT YOU SEE FUNCTIONING AS JUST ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE COMMISSION BUT WITH DIFFERENT DEFINED DUTIES? I'VE SEEN THE VARIOUS PROPOSALS THAT DEFINE THE DUTIES, ALTHOUGH MR. BALES, I DON'T THINK YOU ARTICULATED WHETHER YOU WERE IN SUPPORT OF THE DEFINED DUTIES IN MR. LaBOUR'S POSITION OR ANY OTHER COMBINATION OF THAT. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND, IS THIS A CREATION OF AN EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF OUR COUNTY SYSTEM, A NEW BRANCH OF OUR COUNTY GOVERNMENT? OR IS THIS TO CREATE WITHIN THE COUNTY COMMISSION STRUCTURE A DIFFERENT POSITION THAT HAS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT ABILITY TO PROVIDE LEADERSHIP AND DIRECTION. BUT YOU'RE STILL OPERATING WITHIN THE SAME LEGISLATIVE BRANCH OF THE EXISTING SYSTEM. I MEAN, THAT'S -- I GUESS THAT'S WHERE MY OPPOSITION WAS BEFORE WHEN I WAS SPEAKING OF THE ISSUE. I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF CREATING AN EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT. I'M IN FAVOR OF LOOKING AT AND DISCUSSING THESE ISSUES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TONIGHT IN THE FRAMEWORK OF JUST THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH WE HAVE NOW, WHICH IS OUR COMMISSION SYSTEM. >>DAVID HURLEY: I THINK THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS AND AT THIS POINT WHAT WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, IF WE PASSED SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WE WOULD DO A SUBCOMMITTEE LIKE WE DID WITH THE --. >>KEVIN AMBLER: THAT'S A FUNDAMENTAL -- >>DAVID HURLEY: AT THAT POINT, YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE ALL THE DETAILS PUT DOWN. DEFINING THE DUTIES AND THAT -- AND THEN IT WOULD HAVE TO COME BACK FOR A FINAL VOTE. >>KEVIN AMBLER: I UNDERSTAND OF ALL THE DETAILS OF WHAT THAT OFFICE HOLDS. THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE IN CONCEPT -- BECAUSE MY IDEA OF A MAYOR LIKE YOU HAVE IN THE CITY SYSTEM IS THE MAYOR HAS HIS OWN OFFICE, AN EXECUTIVE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND SERVES -- >>DAVID HURLEY: I DON'T THINK MS. WALDRON USED THE TERM "MAYOR." >>ARLENE WALDRON: I THINK IN THE SPIRIT OF -- IF MY MOTION -- I'M TALKING ABOUT A VERY DEFINED LEADERSHIP POSITION AS AN ELECTED COUNTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WITH DUTIES TO BE DEFINED. >> MR. AMBLER, MY REASON OF SUPPORTING THAT WAS BASED ON SHE JUST SAID. I STILL BELIEVE THAT THE CHAIR IS THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH. AND I STILL BELIEVE THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH WOULD STILL -- WOULD BE THE PERSON APPOINTED TO BE COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR. SO, NO, I DON'T BELIEVE WE'RE CREATING -- I'M NOT IN SUPPORT OF THAT. I'M IN SUPPORT OF WHAT SHE JUST ARTICULATED, WHICH A PERSON WHO IS ELECTED TO A POSITION AS CHAIR THAT CAN HAVE A VISION. AND THAT'S AS FAR AS I'VE GONE. AND YOUR QUESTION TO ME WAS WHETHER I SUPPORTED ALL THESE DUTIES OF THE ELECTED CHAIR. I DON'T KNOW YET. I WANT TO GET SOMEBODY WITH A VISION THAT THE PEOPLE GET TO SELECT. THE REST OF IT, I'M OPEN FOR DISCUSSION. >> YOU THINK THAT SHOULD BE AN AT-LARGE PERSON? >>JOHN BALES: IN FACT, I DIDN'T KNOW WHY, AND NOW I KNOW WHY AFTER MR. BALLARD SPOKE. THAT'S WHY I NEED TO SPEAK LAST BECAUSE I GET MY IDEAS FROM SOMEBODY ELSE. IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE. IF YOU ARE AN ELECTED CHAIR AND FROM A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT, IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO DO YOUR SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT DUTIES. BUT IF YOU WERE COUNTYWIDE, IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOU -- THEN YOU ARE DOING EVERY ONE. WHILE EVERYONE DOES VOTE AT THE COUNTY COMMISSION MEETING, I CAN UNDERSTAND SOME PAROCHIALISM FROM A PERSON THAT IS A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT, SO I WOULD WANT THE BOARD TO HAVE A BROADER VIEW THAN THAT. >>DAVID HURLEY: MS. LASHER AND THEN MR. WHITE. >>DENISE LASHER: I GUESS I NEED SOME CLARIFICATION. I DID WANT TO MAKE ONE POINT REGARDING THE CURRENT SITUATION, THE CURRENT CHAIRMAN, I BELIEVE, HAS AN EXTRA AIDE, IS THAT NOT CORRECT? MARY HELEN IS SHAKING HER HEAD YES. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: ALL THE COMMISSIONERS -- WELL, COMMISSIONER PLATT, I BELIEVE, ONLY HAVE ONE AIDE, THEY ALL HAVE TWO AIDES. CHARLOTTE EMRICK IS A SEPARATE AIDE. SHE DOES ALL THE APPOINTMENTS TO BOARDS AND COUNCILS AND ALL THE OTHER DUTIES AND STAYS IN POSITION OF WHATEVER CHAIR IS ELECTED OR CHOSEN. >>DENISE LASHER: SOME CONSISTENCY OF WHO THAT INDIVIDUAL HAS BEEN. AS THE POSITION CHANGES HAND, SHE CHANGES. THERE ARE EXTRA ASSISTANCE TO THE CHAIR. >>MARY HELEN CAMPBELL: SHE'S CONSTANT. >>DENISE LASHER: NOT THE CURRENT STAFF THAT HAS TO GO AND DO THE EXTRA DUTIES. SOMEBODY THERE TO HELP OUT THE CHAIRMAN. IF YOU TALK TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CHAIR, THAT CAME FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, I THINK THEY FOUND -- THEY FELT THEY REPRESENTED THEIR CITIZENRY ADEQUATELY, IN ADDITION TO BEING CHAIR. AND SO I DON'T -- PERSONALLY, I DON'T SEE THAT AS A PROBLEM. SOME OF THE QUESTIONS I HAD. I KNOW YOU SAID, DUTIES TO BE DETERMINED LATER. I GUESS I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SOME OF THOSE DUTIES ARE THAT EVERYBODY IS THINKING OF. NOW, MR. CHAIRMAN, YOU SUGGESTED THAT THIS CONCEPT GO TO COMMITTEE, THAT ALL WE WOULD BE DOING WOULD BE VOTING ON A CONCEPT. THEN THE COMMITTEE WOULD DRAFT WHAT THOSE DUTIES ARE; IS THAT CORRECT? AND THEN -- A PROPOSAL AND THIS WOULD COME BACK TO THIS GROUP AND THEN WE COULD MAKE ANY REVISIONS THAT WE FELT WERE NECESSARY. AND I GUESS I WOULD FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH THAT KNOWING THAT IT WILL BE DEFINED LATER, THAT I'M NOT VOTING TONIGHT TO GO AHEAD AND HAVE PUBLIC HEARINGS TO EVENTUALLY PERHAPS PUT THIS ON THE BALLOT. I NEED FURTHER CLARIFICATION OF WHAT SPECIFIC DUTIES THE CHAIRMAN WILL HAVE. AND AS LONG AS YOU CAN ASSURE ME OF THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR OTHER OPINIONS ALSO. >>DAVID HURLEY: I KNOW, MYSELF, I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T -- AND I DON'T THINK THERE ARE THAT MANY PEOPLE HERE THAT WILL SAY CARTE BLANCHE, AS DEE SAYS, THE DEVIL IN THE DETAILS. WE WANT TO SEE WHERE THE DEVIL IS IN THIS. MAYBE STEVE CAN TELL US. MR. WHITE. >>GERALD WHITE: I CAN SUPPORT THE FORMATION OF THIS COMMITTEE TO THIS MOTION AND GOING FORWARD WITH -- BEFORE WE LEAVE TONIGHT, GIVE THE COMMITTEE SOME DIRECTIONS AND SOME THINGS THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE DISCUSSED IN THE COMMITTEE RELATING TO DUTIES OF THE CHAIR. I THINK IT'S A GOOD MOTION. IT'S AN EXCELLENT SECOND. I THINK WE SHOULD MOVE FORWARD WITH IT. >>DAVID HURLEY: OKAY. MR. BEDKE AND THEN MR. LaBOUR. >>MIKE BEDKE: I'LL PASS. >>DAVID HURLEY: YIELDS TO MR. LaBOUR. >>STEVE LaBOUR: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. I APPRECIATE MS. WALDRON TRYING TO MOVE US FORWARD AND TO BE BOLD. I'M THINKING MAYBE WE SHOULD BE BOLDER. MY ONLY PROBLEM WITH VOTING FOR THIS MOTION IN ISOLATION OF THE -- OF THE MAKE-UP. I THINK THAT I'VE HEARD A LOT OF DISCUSSION TONIGHT. I THINK THAT WE COULD PROBABLY TAKE A STAB AT EVEN PUTTING A NUMBER, PUTTING, IF WE WANT, SINGLE MEMBER AND HOW MANY OR AT-LARGE AND HOW MANY. I THINK WE CAN EXPAND -- I WOULD LIKE FOR US TO EXPAND YOUR MOTION. I'M ALSO -- I'LL BE CANDID, UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE MOTION AS IT IS BECAUSE THE MOTION SAYS WE'LL MOVE FORWARD TO PUBLIC HEARING. I BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT YOUR MOTION WAS. >>ARLENE WALDRON: ACTUALLY, I DID SAY TO PLACE ON THE BALLOT. TO MAKE A DECISION TO PLACE ON THE BALLOT THE ELECTED COUNTY CHAIRPERSON WITH DUTIES TO BE DEFINED. >>STEVE LaBOUR: FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THAT MOVES US INTO THE NEXT STAGE WHICH IS SETTING A PUBLIC HEARING ON THAT ISSUE. I DON'T WANT TO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING ON THAT ISSUE. I THINK I WANT A PUBLIC HEARING ON A STRUCTURE, ON THE WHOLE PIE, NOT JUST THE WHOLE PIECE. >>DAVID HURLEY: MR. AMBLER. >>KEVIN AMBLER: ONE OTHER POINT OF CLARIFICATION. IF YOU ARE TAKING THIS PIECE OF THE PIE, I ASSUME THAT WILL HAVE TO TO OPERATE -- THIS COUNTY CHAIR THAT YOU MADE THE MOTION FOR, IN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE 4-3 VOTING SYSTEM. THERE HADN'T BEEN ANYTHING PROPOSED YET BY ANYBODY TO ALTER THE EXISTING SEVEN COMMISSION STRUCTURE WITH FOUR SINGLE DISTRICTS AND THREE AT-LARGE, AND THERE'S NOTHING IN THE MOTION THAT SAYS THAT THE CHAIR HAS TO BE FROM ONE OF THE THREE AT-LARGE. SO, I GUESS, WITHOUT THOSE CLARIFICATIONS TO THE MOTION, I WOULD FEEL A LITTLE BIT UNCOMFORTABLE PROCEEDING WITHOUT THOSE THINGS BEING HASHED OUT AND ADDED TO THE MOTION. >>ARLENE WALDRON: I CAN CERTAINLY ADD TO MY MOTION. I'M SURE THAT WE WOULD NOT MAKE ANY PROGRESS, YOU KNOW, IT DOES SEEM TO BE ONE THING THAT WE SORT OF AGREE ON. WHEN I PUT IN THE DISTRICTS OR OTHER THINGS, I DON'T SEE THAT ANYBODY WILL AGREE TO THAT TONIGHT. >>KEVIN AMBLER: FOR EXAMPLE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE A POSITION OF WHETHER YOU LIKE SEVEN VERSUS NINE. BUT YOU CAN TAKE A POSITION THAT THE CHAIR HAS TO BE FROM ONE OF THE AT-LARGE DISTRICTS. WE ALREADY HAVE AT-LARGE DISTRICTS, AND ALL OF THE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT EVEN EXPANDING ARE COMING FROM AN AT-LARGE DISTRICT. >>ARLENE WALDRON: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. >>KEVIN AMBLER: IT DOESN'T SPECIFY ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. >>DAVID HURLEY: I THINK -- IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ELECTED CHAIR ELECTED BY THE PUBLIC, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE ELECTED COUNTYWIDE. >>KEVIN AMBLER: BUT THE MOTION DOESN'T SPECIFY THAT. >>ARLENE WALDRON: I'LL ADD THAT IN. >>DAVID HURLEY: MS. TUTTLE AND SOMEBODY OVER HERE HAD THEIR HAND UP, MR. BEDKE. >>GERALD WHITE: POINT OF ORDER, MR. CHAIRMAN. IF SHE'S GOING TO BE ADDING OR TAKING ANYTHING OUT OF THE MOTION, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THE SECOND ACCOMMODATES THAT. >>ARLENE WALDRON: LET'S DON'T DO THAT YET. I MEAN, I COULD DO THAT -- >>DAVID HURLEY: WE'RE STILL ON DISCUSSION OF THE ORIGINAL MOTION. >>GERALD WHITE: OKAY. >>MARY LOU TUTTLE: COULD WE POSSIBLY -- I THINK SHE HAS A GREAT IDEA. WE HAVE BEEN TALKING IN GENERALITIES ON THE BIG PICTURE SINCE WE STARTED. COULD WE POSSIBLY SEPARATE THESE OUT. LET'S VOTE ON THE ELECTED COUNTY CHAIR. WORK OUT ALL THOSE DETAILS. WE'LL HAVE A SUBCOMMITTEE WORKING ON THAT. LET'S VOTE ON STRUCTURE AND GET A SUBCOMMITTEE WORKING ON THAT. AND STEVE IS GOING -- WHAT, STEVE? ANYWAY, BECAUSE WE'LL NEVER, EVER EVEN GET A MOTION ON THE FLOOR IF WE DON'T DO A LITTLE AT A TIME. >>ARLENE WALDRON: WELL, PERHAPS WE CAN MAKE TWO DECISIONS TONIGHT. >>GERALD WHITE: YEAH, BECAUSE I CAN TELL YOU ONE THING, I DON'T PLAN -- I DON'T KNOW IF I'LL GET A SECOND, BUT IF MR. LaBOUR MADE A MOTION, HE WOULD GET A SECOND ABOUT THE -- I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD, BUT I KNOW HE WILL. IF HE MADE THE MOTION -- >> BE BOLD. >>GERALD WHITE: TO ACCOMMODATE THE NUMBER OF COMMISSIONERS. I'M NOT GOING TO LEAVE HERE TONIGHT JUST WITH THE CHAIR ISSUE ADDRESSED. IF WE CAN MOVE ON AND GO TO THE NEXT PART OF THE STRUCTURE. >>MIKE BEDKE: I GUESS I REALLY DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE MOTION. LIKE MR. LaBOUR, I'M NOT SURE IT GOES QUITE FAR ENOUGH. I DON'T THINK WE ARE QUITE AS FAR AS I THINK WE ARE. WHEN I WALKED IN AND SAW STEVE'S HANDOUT AND I SAW DAVID'S AND ARLENE'S AND MINE, THEY ARE ALL PRETTY CLOSE. THEY ARE RELATIVELY CLOSE. THEY ALL CALL FOR AN ELECTED CHAIRPERSON. THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF DIFFERENCE AS TO THE MAKE-UP OF THE DISTRICTS. EVERYONE SEEMS TO, I THINK, KEEP THE NOTION OF A PROFESSIONAL, APPOINTED COUNTY MANAGER. WHICH I THINK CLARIFIES THE CONCERN THAT KEVIN HAD. AND SO, I'M NOT SO SURE THAT GETTING A SUBGROUP TOGETHER TO HAMMER OUT THE CONCEPTS THAT ARE ALL LARGELY HERE IN TERMS OF THE DUTIES. FRANKLY, WHEN I LOOK AT IT, THERE ARE ONLY A COUPLE OF AREAS OF DIVERGENCE, AND I THINK IT REALLY COMES TO THE MAKE-UP OF THE DISTRICTS AND HOW MANY, AND WHETHER THEY OUGHT TO BE SINGLE MEMBER OR AT-LARGE. I WILL TELL YOU MY GUT REACTION IS TO KEEP THE NOTION OF AT-LARGE. I THINK THAT'S A FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT IN OUR CURRENT CHARTER THAT'S NOT FLAWED BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF THOUGHT WENT INTO THAT IN TERMS OF PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO ELECT A MAJORITY OF THE BOARD. I THINK THERE'S ALSO A RECOGNITION THAT IF YOU COME FROM A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT, AS WE HEARD COMMISSIONER STORMS SAY, YOU'RE THERE PRIMARILY TO FIGHT FOR YOUR DISTRICT. I THINK HAVING AN ELECTED CHAIR OR MAYOR, COUPLED WITH SOME AT-LARGE SEATS, INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD OF STATESMANSHIP. I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S DIRELY IN NEED HERE. AND SO, RATHER THAN BE TOO LIMITED, I REALLY BELIEVE, IF A SUBGROUP WERE COMPRISED TO COME BACK, FRANKLY, PROBABLY, WHAT THAT GROUP WOULD FIND THEMSELVES PRIMARILY DISCUSSING IS THE MAKE-UP OF THE DISTRICTS AND THE SIZE, WHETHER WE SHOULD EXPAND THE BOARD OR NOT OR WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS OR NOT. THERE IS A BIT OF A CONSENSUS ON EXPANDING THE BOARD BECAUSE THERE IS A CONCERN ABOUT THE SIZE THE COUNTY HAS GROWN TO, AND THERE IS A TREMENDOUS CONCERN OF MAKING SURE THERE IS DIVERSITY ON THE BOARD, AND THAT'S BOTH ETHNIC DIVERSITY, GENDER DIVERSITY, AND GEOGRAPHIC. I THINK EVERYBODY IS COGNIZANT OF THE FACT -- AND I DON'T THINK THERE IS A SINGLE PERSON ON THIS CHARTER REVIEW BOARD THAT DIFFERS WITH RESPECT TO CONCERNS ABOUT THE SOUTH OF KENNEDY CLAN CONTROLLING. EVEN THOSE OF US WHO LIVE SOUTH OF KENNEDY. I THINK THE REFORMS THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF DEE WILLIAMS' SUGGESTION OF DISTRICTING OR HAVING A RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT GO TO THE FUNDAMENTAL NATURE OF THAT CONCERN. SO I DON'T THINK ANYTHING IS GOING TO COME OUT OF THIS BODY THAT'S GOING TO RESULT IN PEOPLE BEING HOODWINKED. AND I THINK THERE IS ENOUGH OF A GELLING, OF A CONSENSUS HERE THAT IF THE CHAIR WAS TO ELECT OR APPOINT A GROUP OR TAKE VOLUNTEERS TO WORK ON THIS, WE CAN PROBABLY COME BACK, OR THIS GROUP COULD COME BACK WITH A PRETTY GOOD WORK PRODUCT. >>DAVID HURLEY: I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE WITH THAT. FOR ALL THOSE THAT WERE HERE PRIOR TO US BEING A CHARTER COUNTY WHEN WE HAD FIVE COMMISSIONERS, PRIOR TO SOME OF THEM GOING AWAY IN CHAINS, THEY WERE ALL ELECTED -- THEY WERE ALL ELECTED AT-LARGE. WE HAD FIVE DISTRICTS, AND EACH OF THEM HAD TO RESIDE IN A PARTICULAR DISTRICT, AND THEY ALL RAN AT-LARGE. SO WE GOT TO VOTE FOR ALL FIVE OF THE COMMISSIONERS. I WILL HAVE TO POINT OUT AT THAT POINT -- I WON'T GO ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT MADE US HAVE BETTER COMMISSIONERS BECAUSE WE ALL GOT TO VOTE FOR ALL FIVE OF THEM, JUST FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. >>STEVE LaBOUR: MR. CHAIRMAN. >>DAVID HURLEY: MR. LaBOUR -- >>STEVE LaBOUR: I WOULD OFFER A SUBSTITUTE MOTION THAT THE CHAIR APPOINT A COMMITTEE TO MEET BETWEEN NOW AND THE NEXT MEETING TO DISCUSS THE LOGISTICS OF PUTTING TOGETHER A STRUCTURE THAT WOULD INCLUDE AN ELECTED MAYOR/CHAIRMAN, A STRUCTURE THAT WILL INCLUDE AT-LARGE AND SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT, A NUMBER TO BE DISCUSSED AND CONSIDERED BY OUR NEXT MEETING FOR US TO TAKE A LOOK AT AND ULTIMATELY MAKE A FINAL DECISION ON. >>GERALD WHITE: SECOND. >>DAVID HURLEY: IT'S BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED. THAT'S A SUBSTITUTE MOTION. SOMEBODY IS GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE ME MY ROBERT RULES OF ORDER. >> WHETHER SHE ACCEPTS THE SUBSTITUTE. >>ARLENE WALDRON: MY QUESTION TO THAT WOULD BE -- I CAN'T ASK A QUESTION ON A SUBSTITUTE MOTION. >>STEVE LaBOUR: POINT OF ORDER. SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO ACCEPT A SUBSTITUTE MOTION. >>GERALD WHITE: WE VOTE -- >>ARLENE WALDRON: I HAVE TO ACCEPT IT OR REJECT IT. >>STEVE LaBOUR: VOTE ON THE SUBSTITUTE MOTION FIRST. >>ARLENE WALDRON: CAN I ASK A QUESTION? >>STEVE LaBOUR: CERTAINLY. >> PUT A NUMBER IN THERE SO IT'S CLEARLY DEFINED THAT THEY ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT NINE, TEN, SINGLE AND AT-LARGE? >>STEVE LaBOUR: I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO. I WAS TRYING TO IN THE SPIRIT OF COMPROMISE BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME FOLKS THAT LIKE THE 7-3 AND MAYBE THEY CAN HASH SOME OF THAT OUT -- NOT THE 7-3. THE PRESENT NUMBER OR ADD A NUMBER. I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO PUT A NUMBER IN. >>ARLENE WALDRON: AS A STARTING POINT. >>STEVE LaBOUR: IF I WERE TO PUT A NUMBER IN, IT WOULD BE A TOTAL OF 9, 5 SINGLE MEMBER AND 4 AT-LARGE. >>ARLENE WALDRON: I ACCEPT. >>DAVID HURLEY: ACCEPTING THAT WITH THE NUMBER OR WITHOUT THE NUMBER. >>ARLENE WALDRON: WITH THE NUMBER. >>DENISE LASHER: WE HAVE TO VOTE ON THE SUBSTITUTE MOTION FIRST. >>STEVE LaBOUR: I WILL AMEND MY SUBSTITUTION MOTION. >>GERALD WHITE: AND I'LL SECOND THAT. >> WE HAVE DISCUSSION BEFORE WE VOTE ON THAT. >>DAVID HURLEY: I JUST WANT EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE WE ARE NOW. WE ARE ON AN AMENDMENT -- VOTE ON THE AMENDMENT AND THEN GOES TO THE MOTION AND -- >>STEVE LaBOUR: POINT OF ORDER. WE DON'T HAVE TO VOTE ON THE AMENDMENT, AS LONG AS IT IS ACCEPTED BY THE PERSON WHO SECONDED IT. >> WE ARE VOTING ON THE AMENDED SUBSTITUTE MOTION NOW. THE AMENDED SUBSTITUTE MOTION, RIGHT? >>DENISE LASHER: HELP OURSELVES OUT, KEN. >> IF THE ORIGINAL MEMBER ACCEPTS IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO VOTE ON IT AT THIS POINT. THAT BECOMES THE PRIMARY MOTION ASSUMING THE PERSON THAT SECONDED IT ACCEPTS IT. SINCE YOU ALL AGREE THAT IS THE MOTION, THAT CAN BE THE PRIMARY MOTION. >>STEVE LaBOUR: IF MS. WALDRON IS COMFORTABLE WITH THAT. >>ARLENE WALDRON: THE MOTION BEING THAT WE WILL -- >>STEVE LaBOUR: GO TO COMMITTEE. >>ARLENE WALDRON: GO TO COMMITTEE WITH THE COUNTY ELECTED CHAIR POSITION, DUTIES TO BE DEFINED WITH A TOTAL OF NINE COMMISSIONERS TO BE DETERMINED AT-LARGE AND SINGLE. >>STEVE LaBOUR: CORRECT FIVE BEING -- FIVE BEING SINGLE AND FOUR BEING AT-LARGE. >>ARLENE WALDRON: THAT I DON'T ACCEPT. >>STEVE LaBOUR: OKAY. THAT'S WHY I WAS TRYING TO MAKE MY MOTION AS BROAD AS IT WAS -- I'LL JUST SAY TOTAL OF 9. >>ARLENE WALDRON: OKAY. >>DAVID HURLEY: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE MOTION IS, MS. WEST. >>GERALD WHITE: I'M KIND OF CONFUSED MYSELF. >>RECORDING SECRETARY: IT'S ON TAPE. BASICALLY THE MOTION IS -- WELL, IT WAS -- THAT THE CHAIRMAN TO APPOINT A COMMITTEE TO MEET BETWEEN NOW AND THE NEXT MEETING PUTTING THE STRUCTURE -- JUST A MOMENT. >>STEVE LaBOUR: I CAN RESTATE THE MOTION, MR. CHAIR. >>DAVID HURLEY: I THINK MS. WALDRON JUST DID. I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE WE ARE ALL CLEAR ON WHAT THE MOTION IS. >>ARLENE WALDRON: STEVE, SAY IT AGAIN. >>STEVE LaBOUR: THAT WE HAVE A COMMITTEE THAT WILL MEET WITH THE CHAIRMAN TO MEET BETWEEN NOW AND THE NEXT MEETING TO DISCUSS THE STRUCTURE. MEANING WE HAVE AN ELECTED CHAIR AND WE HAVE NINE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS MADE UP OF BOTH AT-LARGE AND SINGLE-MEMBER WITH A NUMBER SPECIFICALLY TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO THIS GROUP OF THE MAKE-UP OF THAT AT-LARGE AND SINGLE. >> A COMPOSITION. >>STEVE LaBOUR: RIGHT. >> DO YOU ACCEPT THAT? >>ARLENE WALDRON: I ACCEPT THAT AS WELL. >>DAVID HURLEY: ALL THE SECONDERS AND THE MOTION IS ON BOARD. MS. LASHER HAS A COMMENT. >>DENISE LASHER: I THINK YOU HAVE MADE IT TOO SPECIFIC FOR ME TO -- I'M NOT GOING TO SUPPORT IT, BECAUSE I DON'T SUPPORT EXPANDING TO 9. I'M JUST GOING IT TELL YOU I'M GOING